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Old 02-06-2002, 01:17 PM   #171
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Originally posted by excreationist

Ok, then say we got thousands of brains out of fresh corpses and freeze dried them and attached them altogether then starting running electricity or something though it. It might then be even more complex than a brain but that doesn't mean it is complex.

That would sure fry a lot of brains, and the brain has to interact with its own electrical impulses chemical processes or even and not just merely have something zapped into it from the outside. It would be like going to a pile of old old car engines and putting sticks of dynamite in all the spark plug ports and letting them off to make a more complex system. It would be complex for sure but it would not be the organized complexity you get with a single smooth running engine as it interacts in synchronicy with the energy processes it was designed for.

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Old 02-06-2002, 02:02 PM   #172
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Kharakov,
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Why does consciousness require organized complexity?

All matter is organized by the same principles, so all of the complexities we see in nature are organized (although they may appear chaotic). The structure of a chunk of decaying organic matter are a lot more complex (there is more variation in the structure) than the human brain. The matter follows the same laws though.
There is a difference between the amount of structures, the number of atoms, electrons and the functional complexity of a system, by that I mean what it can do. A rock is not capable of solving problems, seeking goals, of appreciating a symphony whereas machines -human machines- certainly are capable of these things.

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You don't think that evidence indicates that all of the particles in your body obey the same laws as the particles in a rock? You don't think that your consciousness is part of these laws being acted out? Your consciousness is the sum of all the material (matter/energy) that makes up your body and your environment- even another person talking to you is part of your consciousness (it is within your awareness). All of these things effect you in a much more refined way then they effect a rock, although all objects in your environment respond in some way to the physical vibration of the other persons voice- which has much more subtle effects upon a rock than it does on you
A dead brain or an unconscious one is acted upon and constituted by, the very same physical laws that act upon a breathing, bigoted and insightful human being. The theory that you present, the idea that it is the laws of physics which has some mysterious consciousnessnesful force “field” doesn’t really change anything. We still don’t know why the brain is conscious and now we have to deal with force fields that nobody can detect!

The answer is not what stuff it is made of, it is a question of what the system can do, how it is organized. The truly interesting question of consciousness is: What is it about what our brains do that make us believe in an “I”? Of course our brains' functional organization is more subtle than that of a rock, the question is exactly how it differs to produce the effects that it does. At this point in time there is no independent justification for postulating some C Ray which permits the brain to produce consciousness. I would like to see this thesis defended.

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Maybe human consciousness has a much stronger field strength than that of a rock- but it does not make it more dynamic or intelligent.
Can one person more clever than another? Can every tree, corpse and garbage beat Deep Blue at chess? Everyone on earth doesn’t have the same cognitive capacity or the same emotional sophistication. A simple thimble or single shingle cannot play chess.

How do we know whether or not one person is smarter than another person or smarter than a button? Well we talk to them, see how they deal with various situations, assess their insight. We [i[observe[/i] them, we get irrefutable proof that human beings are brilliantly complex creatures and that words like “intelligence” don’t even apply to shit like shingles and things like thimbles.

I would like to see independent justification for believing in your force fields. What observable consequences do they have?

Regards,
Synaesthesia
 
 

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