Illithid

If atheists renounced their opinion based on other atheists being jerks, good ole M.M.O'Hair woulda crashed the whole shebang.

There is an important difference, however. There is no atheistic dogma that being an atheist makes you a nicer person. Atheism is not a system of beliefs telling you how to live. Christianity does presume to morally instruct people in this way, and so if enough Christians are jerks this could be an argument against its truth.

However, for myself I will answer that no, annoying Christian individuals played no part in any deconversion of mine. Mine wasn't the most fervent of beliefs anyway, but I shrugged off what Christian faith I had had through cultural osmosis based solely on the flaws in the belief system, and that it didn't seem to describe the world correctly. And I like to sleep in on Sundays. And all the other days, too. No, that part explains my GPA, never mind...

scigirl

BZZZZT! Wrong, very wrong.

I rejected Christianity when I actually *thought* about it for longer than half a minute.

The sex orgies were just a side bonus.

scigirl

HelenM

Badfish, do you realize that deconversion means someone stops believing in God (or changes their beliefs enough that they are no longer 'Christian' beliefs)? What does that have to do with lifestyle?

They didn't become a Christian because of adopting a lifestyle did they? I thought it was by grace through faith. I.e. it's a matter of changing their belief; the lifestyle part follows.

And likewise, a person who deconverts changes their belief and consequently has no reason to live like people live who believe other than they do, unless they approve of that lifestyle for their own reasons.

And Christians never do that...

Have you read any Calvinist/Arminian debates lately? That's a game I would call "which verses can we ignore?"

That's not a good description of some Calvinists but...carry on...

Are people saved by 'faith in the Bible'? I thought they were saved by God

Well, yeah, but there are also the earthquakes and floods affecting people who've never even heard of Jesus; there is the eternality of hell; etc etc

Is it wrong to count that as evidence against God?

Have you read any of the testimonies of people who tried to keep believing but couldn't?

I hope you'll reading IIDB - you might find there's more to it.

Mistreatment by fellow Christians is an entirely separate reason for deconversion, from anything mentioned earlier in your post. Maybe it's a reference to what livius drusus said.

I'd say much of the mistreatment I've read about here happens when someone has already begun questioning and their questions are not taking seriously. Maybe the person they took them to said "Oh sure - you're just looking for an excuse to have sex with your boyfriend/girlfriend..." - i.e. they shared your theory at the top of this post...

I heard this on the radio recently: some smug Christian teacher said to a college student who objected to his teaching "Who are you sleeping with?" and claimed the college student was stunned by this response. Then the teacher - on the radio - went on to expound your theory.

Well, say what you like - I don't see evidence here that people have stopped believing because they wanted a reason not to have to live the Christian lifestyle. Rather, not living the Christian lifestyle followed on from ceasing to believe.

A general comment about mistreatment: have you heard Christians claim that their lives should be evidence God is real? If so, then don't you think it logically follows that their lives could be evidence God is not real, also? It works both ways, doesn't it?

Helen

pz

Hey, that describes my adoption of atheism as well, except for the sleeping in on sundays bit--I tend to get up early every day.

I've never done drugs, I drink only in moderation, I've never attended an orgy, and I am cheerfully heterosexual. It's never been about the lifestyle or morality. I gave up christianity simply because it is a stupid bunch of superstitions, and it is mostly wrong. I've even read the bible, and don't see what all the noise is about. It's got its flashes of brilliance, but it is mostly boring sludge, rather incoherently slapped together.

Benjamin Franklin

I can agree with that partially. Try practising turn the other cheek when you are in the military service. There is nothing noble about this type of self-sacrifice, just plain stupidity.


BF

mike_decock

I agree with you Helen. When I was a Christian, anyone who questioned their faith was always accused of doing so out of a selfish desire to sin. I was even accused of it when I asked a very close friend some questions. I think that's part of the indoctrination in many Christian groups (Questioning Faith = Sinful Desires).

I think this is a mechanism to shame the questioner and make them doubt their motivations for questioning. It's a low, dirty tactic which is very powerful and even more harmful to the individual.

I have yet to hear a single deconversion story where "sinful desires" was in any way a motivator for leaving the faith. As you said, the lifestyle change comes as a result of the deconversion, and I suspect that it usually isn't too drastic of a change. My lifestyle hasn't really changed at all.

-Mike...

livius drusus

I interpreted his response to mean that since encountering rude xians never weakened his own faith, anyone whose faith is troubled by xian mistreatment must have an entirely different agenda (ie, replacing the sober love of Jesus with the intoxicated love of pleasure), whether they know it or not.
Exactly. I pointed Badfish to the deconversion stories so he could see that such abrasive tactics when dealing with people questioning their faith are counterproductive at best, mental abuse at worst.

I'm not sure what you mean here, Helen. It seems to me that most deconverts retain much the same lifestyle as before. The moral guidelines that appealed to them as xians don't stop appealing to them just because they've shed their belief in the supernatural.

Makes sense to me.

HelenM

"whether they know it or not" - ah yes; it sure is handy to be able to say that people who don't agree with you, really do, but they just don't know that they do...

(That wasn't directed at you, ld - it was a general comment aimed at those who depend on 'denial' theories)

I see what you're saying. Yes, I agree that people who deconvert generally seem to retain similar moral standards. They evidently don't go from being model citizens and Christians one week, to atheists and raping, looting, pillaging and being rude to old ladies the next. I think it's a very wrong misconception of some Christians that those who deconvert are going to completely change their moral values once they don't have the contraint of trying to behave as they once believed God wanted them to behave.

However, I think people who deconvert would quickly drop any behaviors that seem irrelevant/a waste of time (or worse) once they stopped believing in God. I think this would be evident enough to be noticed by others around them if they weren't trying to behave in ways that kept their deconversion secret.

I hope that clarifies what I meant.

Helen

beth

This is true. I have kept most of my morals, but there are now things I am struggling with because I no longer have the Bible as telling me that something is immoral. But my moral code is based on not wanting to hurt others, so I don't think that I will ever change too much, because most immoral actions will cause pain to others.

The strange thing about my deconversion is that most people will not accept it because they see me as a relatively good person; an atheist, to most Christians, is an immoral, evil, cruel person. Maybe the churches should give better instruction on what people of others beliefs are really like.

Rhea

Right. Like driving, for example. Christians shouldn't drive because if studies show you can't talk on the phone and drive, surely being with God takes more attention than chatting up your bud.

Which makes it exceptionally convenient that Christians wear those "fish" on their bumpers, so we know who to watch out for... who's in the process of sinning, that is.