Charlie

Wow! I couldn't have said it better myself! Are you sure you are a theist? (I do not mean any disrespect here ) I really like your openmindedness! I would almost think of you as a "freethinker". Once again I have to agree with all that you said. You make it very easy to compliment you!

My speculating on why theist are here at this forum, was just pure speculation. I have not been here long enough to have any idea as to the reality of it. Therefore, I will accept that the way you see it is probably more acturate than my speculation.

Yes, how other people see the world is fascinating, isn't it. I agree with the broadness of the word "generally" in your statement, "We 'generally' have the same info, and yet so many different conclusions." And yes this does fascinate me. I would add that we also get different info and at significant points of time in our lives. Example, while we are children, we are most vulnerable to believing the unbelievable. And thus, this (during our childhood) may be where a lot of us become indoctrinated with respect to our beliefs. However, I don't think this to be all inclusive to all humans. Some may grow up with no belief and then later, as an adult, choose to believe! What are your thoughts?

As well as this forum, I am also a member of other (nonbelieving and freethinking) groups which I am study/learning about this fascination/interest of "how" and "why" people believe. I am also currently reading the following books: The Bible (Gideons Old & New Testaments), "Why People Believe Weird Things" by Michael Shermer, "Losing Faith In Faith" by Dan Barker. Do you have any suggested reading/books on this subject, from your perspective?
Sincerely,
Charlie

wildernesse

Sorry, Charlie!

I am really just bumping this thread back to the front page, so that I will remember to answer it later today! I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet.

bump!

--tibac

Charlie

..made me laugh..

I never really paid attention to that. I did the email set up so that I get an email everytime any of my posts are replied to. It takes me right to each of my posts.. kind of neat, although as times I get a lot of emails.

No problem, take your time. I always try to have no expectations, no judgement, no competition.. this is from my yoga studies.. things like self realization, you must go within or you go without, no one can steal your peace...
Charlie

Radorth

Read some other ones.

Everything I have ever shared of my personal testimony has been mocked. But I know how skeptics like to pretend these things aren't happening.

Rad

wildernesse

Charlie:

Haha! Yes, I'm sure I'm a theist, and no offense taken. My interest in people led to studies in anthropology, which does tend to lead people along the path of realization that their way of things (whatever it is) is a result of different environmental, biological, and historical factors and not a result of having truth.

I think that our childhood does strongly affect the way we view the world--but there comes a time (actually a multitude of times) when a person has to make choices for themselves about what they are going to believe. I don't think we can fully escape from our upbringing--but as conscious and contemplative creatures we can make attempts in any direction.

I haven't read the books by Shermer or Barker, but so many people mention them, I think I will have to. I'm afraid that I don't have any books to recommend at this time--I flit from interest to interest and hobby to hobby! I will be on the look-out, and keep this topic in the "front" of my mind.

Hope you have a good weekend.
--tibac

Charlie

wildernesse,
Once again, very well said and I agree! And to focus on the following of your words:

"I think that our childhood does strongly affect the way we view the world--but there comes a time (actually a multitude of times) when a person has to make choices for themselves about what they are going to believe. I don't think we can fully escape from our upbringing--but as conscious and contemplative creatures we can make attempts in any direction."

Exactly, and this is why I am so puzzled! Hoping you and other believers can help me to better understand!? Once a person begins to make choices for themselves about what they are going to believe, why don't they see how irrational it is to believe in religion/god?

I have all kinds of explanations ie., people are indoctrinated so strongly during childhood to believe and that their belief is truth, not raised a believer during childhood but later developed strong friendships with believers, enjoy the comfort of being with others that have the same belief (if everyone else believes then it must be true), a need to belong, a need for friendship, a need to understand, enjoy having answers to questions of origin that presume to give us purpose and meaning, it feels good to have a purpose, it feels good to have meaning, it feels good to have a belief and to believe, it's fun to dream and even more fun to believe (before you know it we turn our dreams into belief and then our belief into truth), the fear of death, the fear of reality, unable to accept the somewhat harsh world that we live in for what it really is, a need to lift our lives from despair, the power of belief...

Please remember why I say all of this and where I'm coming from. I have no belief. I am an atheist and I have also had no belief for all my life. Some believers might actually say that I have been indoctrinated into no belief. However, my parents (who btw have beliefs) did take me to churches of many different faiths and told me about how some people believe in god(s)/religion. So I was exposed to religion while growing up, heck I've been exposed to religion all my life. So I don't think that I was indoctrinated into no belief.

Somehow I simply reasoned my way through life. Everytime religion aproached me, my rational thinking and reasoning resulted in religion not making any sense (not having any reality). I have also talked with theists who are convinced that their belief in god/religion is completely rational, logical and reasonable (..some sort of reality that exists above our world reality). They even take it further to say that, I the atheist, is the one who is not rational, logical and reasonable. This of course blows my mind, does not compute, makes me scratch my head... I find this amazing and thus, brings me right back to my fascination with the "how" and "why" people believe!?

I am interested in your thoughts?
Sincerely,
Charlie

Opera Nut

Charlie....I tried to believe and it didn't work...God didn't talk to me and the other Christians couldn't MAKE me have a subjective religious experience......no tough concept to get over there.

Just no evidence.

Charlie

Hi Radorth,
If I have mocked or been disrespectful to anyone on this thread then I apologize. I'm really trying to just listen. However, I'm human and if I feel that someone is preaching their truth to me, rather than just sharing their "how" and "why", then I may end up in a debate. It would be just as challenging if a believer asked me (a nonbeliever) how I came to have no religious beliefs.. and then when I respond with "reason" and "rational" thought as an explanation, the believer would have the same urge to want to engage in debate.

I realize that I'm asking a serious question! It requires you to look back and review your own life and ask yourself, How did I become a Christian?

If you feel compelled to share your "how" and "why", but are leery of the skeptics, then perhaps consider sending your story to me via private letter as some believers have already done?
I would like to hear your story?
Sincerely,
Charlie

Charlie

Opera Nut,
As an atheist I agree with you all the way. And being an atheist is one reason why I am so interested in the Christians that do have a subjective religious experience? It's fascinating to me and I want to learn more as to the "how" and "why" they believe?

From all of your experience, why do you think christians believe? And please try to be respectful to the believers

I was actually wanting to hear from the believers, rather than from the nonbelievers, however you were once a believer (or tried to be a believer?!)
Sincerely,
Charlie

wildernesse

I think that many people do have experiences that match their expectations of what God is and does. To disregard those experiences would seem irrational to them, I think.



Those are all good options, but I doubt that many theists continue believing just because it feels good--more because that is how they were taught that the world actually *is* the way that their belief states. How could it be any other way, especially when they have experience that backs their beliefs up? And because they believe that their worldview is accurate (and worldviews are very subjective, so who's to say?), then it does feel good, yes, to know how to place events in their worldview and know their place in events. All humans do this, theists simply have a supernatural element in their worldview. Why the supernatural? Well, probably because there are things in this world that were, are, and most likely will be too marvelous and horrible to comprehend.

Now that I've written this paragraph in such a nice and distanced way, I'll have to say that it works just as well with I and my in place of they and their--and that this is solely my opinion on why the entire world has theistic belief (for those who believe) and the statement is accurate in proportion to my knowledge and understanding.


I hope that you are not worried about insulting me by stating your opinions on religious belief. I don't think that you are in any danger of it whatsoever.

Well, I don't think that atheists are illogical or irrational--most of the time! My husband's atheism sounds very similar to yours--as he was raised by what he deems "secular Christians". He was baptized, but not much else. The two of us do not have similar experiences in belief in any way.

I think that an interesting topic that you might want to add to "how" and "why" is "what". In other words, what do people believe, and what role does it play in their societies. What does their deity do? I would bet that there are strong commonalities even across cultures, which would probably lead you to why--or at least the why of the past. Of course, if you find that the why of the past isn't relevant to today, then you're left with why the belief continues. I write like there is a single why reason for everything! ha.

Would you explain more about the "how" you are interested in? I don't know if I could answer how I believed, because I'm not sure what you are asking.

Have a good day.

--tibac