Freethought & Rationalism Archive

malookiemaloo · 03-05-2003, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
No, malook. It's a faith stance that: (1) the words of Jesus were reported faithfully (2) nobody added or altered them (3) you've interpreted it properly (4)....etc. This "faith stance" of yours sneaks in all kinds of different faiths. Basically, you worship not Jesus, but the Bible.

Vorkosigan

By implication, are you saying that it is impossible to worship Jesus?

m

Oxymoron · 03-05-2003, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
At the end of the day, it's a faith stance re Jesus's claim to be God.

You may care to join in the discussion on the will in the GRD.

m

You're ducking the question, malookie ma wee pet haggis

Why THAT faith?

What was so wrong with the other ones?

Bobzammel · 03-05-2003, 07:10 AM

BTW "Adam and Eve" are only translations of titles, not actual names. Genesis does a lot of wordplay. Adam should be translated as "Man" and Eve "Mother of living". Interestingly, the Hebrew word for Dust is also similar to Adam--a clever pun telling us that man is dust

. It is only until later that it is perceived as a name, in the same way that "Adversary" and "accusser" ends up becoming "Satan". For instance the Satan in the story of the census, and also in some translations of the Psalms, is not referring to any semi-evil entity.

Vorkosigan · 03-05-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by malookiemaloo
By implication, are you saying that it is impossible to worship Jesus?
m

No, I am saying that your "Jesus" is a construction that includes a lot more than just mere words on a page. I can't see why anyone would worship such a construction born of the interaction between text, doctrine, and tradition. Christians worship a text, not a person. "Jesus" is just a the convenient title that they have given to that form of worship.

Vorkosigan

malookiemaloo · 03-05-2003, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vorkosigan
No, I am saying that your "Jesus" is a construction that includes a lot more than just mere words on a page. I can't see why anyone would worship such a construction born of the interaction between text, doctrine, and tradition. Christians worship a text, not a person. "Jesus" is just a the convenient title that they have given to that form of worship.

Vorkosigan

You seem to be saying that it IS impossible to worhip Jesus.

m

Ojuice5001 · 03-05-2003, 08:09 AM

Of course Adam and Eve existed. Who else did Prometheus give fire to?

braces_for_impact · 03-05-2003, 08:20 AM

Well, it would help if you knew precisely who you were worshipping would it not?

Which Jesus do you worship? The one in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? They do differ. I think most christians that worship 'Jesus' worship an ideal . Not a real person. Each Christian has a slightly different version of this ideal in their head when they worship, and some are drastically different.

Is it possible to worship Jesus? Sure, it's just your particular version of him.

malookiemaloo · 03-05-2003, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by braces_for_impact
Well, it would help if you knew precisely who you were worshipping would it not?

Which Jesus do you worship? The one in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? They do differ. I think most christians that worship 'Jesus' worship an ideal . Not a real person. Each Christian has a slightly different version of this ideal in their head when they worship, and some are drastically different.

Is it possible to worship Jesus? Sure, it's just your particular version of him.

In what way do the gospels reveal a different Jesus?

Obviously there will be different emphases, some gospels mention some things and omit others. Are you saying that they conflict in their portrail of Jesus?

m

Kosh · 03-05-2003, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by worldling
malookiemaloo wrote:

By what process of reasoning did you arrive at the conclusion that because these two characters from antiquity - at least one of whom is of dubious historicity - apparently believed in the existence of Adam, this constitutes "good enough" evidence for a rational and educated adult in the 21st century to accept Adam's existence as fact?

If you don't mind my asking.

The process is a logical fallacy called Argumentum ad Verecundiam.

Theists seem to have quite a problem with logical fallacies.

malookiemaloo · 03-06-2003, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
The process is a logical fallacy called Argumentum ad Verecundiam.

Theists seem to have quite a problem with logical fallacies.

To be truthful, I am new to the arguments that Jesus was a fictional character.

I suppose I accept the veracity of the Bible documents.

I think I am right in saying that it is a minority view among atheists that Jesus never existed. I find this interesting but nit strictly relevant.

How many logical fallacies have I adopted here?!

m

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03-05-2003, 07:10 AM	#13
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	BTW "Adam and Eve" are only translations of titles, not actual names. Genesis does a lot of wordplay. Adam should be translated as "Man" and Eve "Mother of living". Interestingly, the Hebrew word for Dust is also similar to Adam--a clever pun telling us that man is dust . It is only until later that it is perceived as a name, in the same way that "Adversary" and "accusser" ends up becoming "Satan". For instance the Satan in the story of the census, and also in some translations of the Psalms, is not referring to any semi-evil entity.

03-05-2003, 08:09 AM	#16
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Of course Adam and Eve existed. Who else did Prometheus give fire to?

03-05-2003, 08:20 AM	#17
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	Well, it would help if you knew precisely who you were worshipping would it not? Which Jesus do you worship? The one in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John? They do differ. I think most christians that worship 'Jesus' worship an ideal . Not a real person. Each Christian has a slightly different version of this ideal in their head when they worship, and some are drastically different. Is it possible to worship Jesus? Sure, it's just your particular version of him.

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