stryder2112

Here's an article that appeared in the <a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/cgi-bin/o/issues/2001/01/allen.htm" target="_blank">Atlantic Monthly</a> a few months ago that basically summarizes Hutton's book and debunks the "Goddess Movement" in general. The author, Charlotte Allen, is a Catholic apologist, btw.

Stryder

Polar Bear

Very interesting article, thanks Stryder!

However, I noticed that the author blows off the idea that any modern Christian ceremonies, traditions, rituals or holidays have any pagan origins whatsoever. Of course those origins are extremely well-documented -- perhaps she was trying too hard to distance her faith's trappings from their pagan roots?

stryder2112

You're welcome

<strong> I agree, which is why I made sure to mention who the author is. For another article of hers, see this published in <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-allen061702.asp" target="_blank">The National Review</a> where she blames the Catholic Church pedophile priest scandal on liberalism in the Catholic Church. <a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/20july98/fredriksen072098.html" target="_blank">Here's</a> a review by Paula Fredrisksen blasting Allen's <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684827255/" target="_blank">book</a> criticizing the Jesus Seminar.

Stryder

p.s. I now see that Toto started <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000406" target="_blank">this thread</a> over in Biblical Criticism & Archaeology about Ms. Allen's book.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: stryder2112 ]

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: stryder2112 ]</p>

shiver

we are the musicmakers...and we are the dreamers of the dream.

stryder2112

I agree with your assessment. However, I should point out that only the flakiest neopagans and wiccans will insist the ridiculous historical claims are true. By and large, the neopagan community has embraced Dr. Hutton's work and use it to debunk the claims coming from their flakier fringe.

My experiences with neopagans makes me believe that, in general, the more serious ones are much like liberal xians. They know that the historical claims are bunk... and just don't care. They'll freely admit that their religion is a 20th century invention and will say that it doesn't really matter to them. They'll say that they are creating a modern spiritual expression that emphasizes closeness to nature, etc.

Of course, you'll also be able to find the high school kid who, like, bought this kewl book about witchcraft and stuff. Like, it says it's way old, from like 30,000 years ago and like how there's this goddess and spells and stuff....

Stryder

mibby529

Several American Indians, though not really atheists, have critiqued self-proclaimed "neo-Indians." (Geez, "neo" sure implies that we've died out.) They are very critical, however, pointing out that the "neo-Indian" beliefs are NOT traditional Indian beliefs. Since they are not what they claim, they cannot be accurate. Here are some sites:

<a href="http://puffin.creighton.edu/lakota/war.html" target="_blank">Lakota Declaration of War Against Exploiters</a>
Simply an official document saying that the Lakota will fight exploiters by any legal means.

<a href="http://www.lakotaoyate.com" target="_blank">Traditional Lakota elders</a>
(The Lakota are a New Age fave, so they're at the forefront of the movement against plastic shamans.)

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/indie/mibby" target="_blank">Twinkies for Dummies</a>
My site.

<a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newagefraudsplastichshamans" target="_blank">New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans</a>
It's back. New Agers tried to delete this list a la alt.religion.scientology, but it's back. And, yes, I am aware that the URL is misspelled, but it was a typo. Blame the owner. LOL

<a href="http://www.nafps.net" target="_blank">New Age Frauds Plastic Shamans</a>
The site for the last list.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/cosaeuntwinkie/shame-ons.html" target="_blank">Shamans & Shame-ons</a>
An article by the owner of the NAFPS club. The site this is on was intended to inform European surfers that a "native shaman" is neither native nor a shaman.

Zack

To Mibby 529: A million thank-yous for the links about fake shamans. It is difficult to write about my experience with "white guy shamans" without getting very angry. I will just warn people that if you come into contact with one, DO NOT TRUST THEM! Do not share ANY personal information about yourself with them. They are a bunch of manipulative control freaks who will turn on you unless you buy all of their B.S. I am very happy to see that Native American leaders and others are getting in the face of these charlatns. These fakers and scam artists are no better than European Christian missionaries who helped to destroy Indian Culture.

Polar Bear

Hear hear, Mibby. I have a friend involved with AIM and similar orgs who really loathes these disgusting charlatans.

stryder2112

I'm glad Mibby added those links too.

Going back to an earlier post I made about wicca and historical claims, I'd like to expand a little on what I wrote. In general, criticizing the historical claims won't gain you much. However, going after the paranormal aspects are much better. In general, I've found that new agers and neopagans tend to swallow whole paranormal explanations of the world. Many are also really into the whole "occult," mystery religion, secret knowledge thing. Many are looking for that "occult master" or other person who has access to the "mysteries" and can initiate them into the world of hidden knowledge. That is the main reason that charlatans are endemic to the new age movement as a whole - tying it back to the American Indian/neoindian thing.

It's that same thing - the "secret mysteries" of native american religion that the neoindians are after, and that's what these fake shaman are selling, access to the "mysteries".

Stryder

shiver

"Going back to an earlier post I made about wicca and historical claims, I'd like to expand a little on what I wrote. In general, criticizing the historical claims won't gain you much. However, going after the paranormal aspects are much better."

The spiritualists I have encountered seem to be seeking the same thing that even most skeptics seek on this board...acceptance, comfort, consideration, companionship, unconditional friendship and the ever present hierarchy of needs as found in any tribe.

Conform or be cast out.

Follow your bliss...