Freethought & Rationalism Archive

leonarde · 03-28-2002, 08:05 AM

Just curious: if some verification of the exodus
(even if one with smaller population figures)did
turn up in contemporaneous, non-Biblical sources
would any of the non-believers change their minds
about the reliability of the Bible?

leonarde · 03-28-2002, 09:04 AM

Partial post by Karim:

Quote:

Example: The United Kingdom of Israel is supposedly dated to the 10TH century BC. At that time Jerusalem wasn't a city yet and Juda had around 2000 people.

But I thought that King Solomon built (or started
building) the Temple in Jerusalem in the 10th Century BC. Could I have been wrong?

Jayhawker Soule · 03-28-2002, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Just curious: if some verification of the exodus (even if one with smaller population figures)did turn up in contemporaneous, non-Biblical sources would any of the non-believers change their minds about the reliability of the Bible?

An example might help.

spin · 03-28-2002, 09:48 AM

leonarde:
-----------
Just curious: if some verification of the exodus
(even if one with smaller population figures)did
turn up in contemporaneous, non-Biblical sources
would any of the non-believers change their minds
about the reliability of the Bible?
-----------

We have verification of an exodus with the history of the Hyksos expulsion.

One has to deal with ancient writings judging the content situation for situation. This applies to Jewish religious writings as well as Roman historians, though we are more likely to accept accounts from the latter because they can very often be shown to be related to history at least in some manner. This doesn't mean that we take even them as given.

Godless Dave · 03-28-2002, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leonarde:
Just curious: if some verification of the exodus
(even if one with smaller population figures)did
turn up in contemporaneous, non-Biblical sources
would any of the non-believers change their minds
about the reliability of the Bible?

I would change my mind about its reliability on historical events, but not miraculous events. I would have no problem accepting that the ancestors of the Jews were once slaves or laborers in Egypt, or that they were led out of Egypt by a charismatic leader, or even that he started codifying some laws for their society. But no written account would get me to believe that he turned a staff into a serpent, or that God sent plagues to Egypt to punish them for their treatment of the Hebrews, or that God spoke to someone out of a burning bush.

Lots of ancient writings mix historical accounts with mythology, especially when the accounts are written generations after the events took place (as the book of Exodus was). The further something is in the past, the easier it is to mythologize it. It's not unique to the bible, nor is it slandering the bible to postulate that its authors and editors were following this common practice. They were not trying to write a historically accurate account. They were writing a religious and cultural document for their people, probably based on oral traditions.

[edit: superfluous apostrophe]

[ March 28, 2002: Message edited by: Godless Dave ]

davidH · 03-28-2002, 09:50 AM

I don't see why you should question what is said about the Exodus - especially when many other towns and peoples and events described in the old Testement have been found in other ancient writings.

I see no reason why an exodus from Egypt would have been made up by the Isrealites.

Godless Dave · 03-28-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sole Controller:
According to my understanding of history, the acient Egyptians were excellent keepers of records. With this in mind, Why are there no records of a mass exodus of Jewish slaves in acient egyptian history. Also would that not have put a black mark on Ramses rein.

If the Jews were slaves or lower-class laborers, they might not have been significant enough to keep records about. Records are generally kept for the benefit of the ruling class.

And it may not have been a slave revolt so much as a population movement. They may have been more like immigrant laborers than slaves, albiet impoverished and poorly treated, so if a bunch of them decided to up and leave the Egyptian ruling classes may not have considered it a big deal. They may have been replaced by other laborers. Think of all the migrant workers who come and go in the U.S. Their nationalities and movements are rarely documented, and the work they do is invisible to most people.

Jayhawker Soule · 03-28-2002, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidH:
I don't see why you should question what is said about the Exodus - especially when many other towns and peoples and events described in the old Testement have been found in other ancient writings.

Here we go again. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Current scholarship confirms the existence of Kansas. Meteorological records confirm more than a few instances of tornadic activity, and the area is known to be the site of extensive farm land. None of which justifies belief in Witches or Munchkins!

leonarde · 03-28-2002, 10:07 AM

davidH makes a good point: most peoples would be
a bit skittish about bragging that their ancestors
had been slaves/serfs: we know from the Nazis and
other fascistic types that nationalism usually
centers on stories of (long-ago)greatness/wealth/
power by the "nation" or ethnic group in question.
Cheers!

Sauron · 03-28-2002, 11:02 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toto:
[QB]The Ipuwer Papyrus again. Read the prior discussion (I'm getting tired of having to pull this up):

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000361" target="_blank">What is the scoop on the "Ipuwer Papyrus" re: the Plagues of Egypt? </a>

Broken link.

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03-28-2002, 08:05 AM	#51
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	Just curious: if some verification of the exodus (even if one with smaller population figures)did turn up in contemporaneous, non-Biblical sources would any of the non-believers change their minds about the reliability of the Bible?

03-28-2002, 09:48 AM	#54
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	leonarde: ----------- Just curious: if some verification of the exodus (even if one with smaller population figures)did turn up in contemporaneous, non-Biblical sources would any of the non-believers change their minds about the reliability of the Bible? ----------- We have verification of an exodus with the history of the Hyksos expulsion. One has to deal with ancient writings judging the content situation for situation. This applies to Jewish religious writings as well as Roman historians, though we are more likely to accept accounts from the latter because they can very often be shown to be related to history at least in some manner. This doesn't mean that we take even them as given.

03-28-2002, 09:50 AM	#56
davidH Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: N.Ireland Posts: 527	I don't see why you should question what is said about the Exodus - especially when many other towns and peoples and events described in the old Testement have been found in other ancient writings. I see no reason why an exodus from Egypt would have been made up by the Isrealites.

03-28-2002, 10:07 AM	#59
leonarde Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: North America Posts: 1,603	davidH makes a good point: most peoples would be a bit skittish about bragging that their ancestors had been slaves/serfs: we know from the Nazis and other fascistic types that nationalism usually centers on stories of (long-ago)greatness/wealth/ power by the "nation" or ethnic group in question. Cheers!

03-28-2002, 11:02 AM	#60
Sauron Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: In the dark places of the world Posts: 8,093	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toto: [QB]The Ipuwer Papyrus again. Read the prior discussion (I'm getting tired of having to pull this up): <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000361" target="_blank">What is the scoop on the "Ipuwer Papyrus" re: the Plagues of Egypt? </a> Broken link.

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