tgamble

Isn't it a standard resposne to deny that such people were "true christians"?

lpetrich

As to atheism and Communism, I don't think that atheism is fundamental to Communism. Here are the essentials of Communism:

Communism is based on Karl Marx's theory of history, which states that there is a law of development of human societies in which different social classes rise and dethrone their predecessors, that the working class (proletariat) will rise and dethrone the capitalist class (bourgeoisie), and that the ultimate end result is the Communist Commonwealth, where everybody will be unselfishly helpful to others in a utopia of virtuous anarchists.

Lenin and his fellow Bolshevik revolutionaries added some additional details about the rule of the working class. They claimed that the working class has to be led by a party of class-conscious workers, which is to have absolute control over the rest of society until such time as true Communism can come into existence, at which point the State will wither away. And this ruling party will have a right to commit terrible atrocities, because the end justifies the means. "It is necessary to break eggs to make an omelet," goes a familiar Communist apologetic.

And it just so happened that Lenin and his friends were leading such a party.

Now what does this have to do with atheism? Marx viewed religion as being something like drug addiction, and it is entirely possible that Marxists and Communists might have evolved a policy of letting people practice their religions, no matter how silly and nonsensical they may be, as long as they don't bother others about it or cause a lot of trouble.

However, Lenin and his party had been in Tsarist Russia, where the Russian Orthodox Church had had a close relationship with the Tsarist regime. Most of the various revolutionaries had wanted to separate church and state, but Lenin and his friends decided to go further, to destroy the Church outright instead of allowing it to exist in some politically neutered form.

Which was a Very Bad Thing, and a permanent black mark on the record of Communism.

Communists also went on to create grotesque personality cults of their leaders, a rather obvious quasi-religious thing. North Korea's leaders have even been credited with working miracles(!) Of the others, the Soviet Communists had created a fancy tomb for Lenin, where his body, or some waxworks simulacrum of it, still rests. One article about the renovation of that tomb in the 1970's describes him as "the genius of humanity" and tells how the tomb's reopening will allow "thousands and millions to bring worship to him." Worship?????

Atheism alone was not the problem; it was atheism combined with intolerance -- which is not a necessary part of atheism. Furthermore, the track record of Communism shows that atheism does not preclude believing in quasi-religious belief systems, such as some law of historical necessity that will ultimately reward the virtuous and punish the wicked, or the personality cults.

I conclude with one example of Lenin personality cultism: someone recalled a story about how Lenin, as a little boy, had dropped a pitcher, which then proceed to break. He agonized over it, but concluded that it was best to be honest and tell his parents about it.

Which reminds me of a similar story about George Washington and a certain cherry tree.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: lpetrich ]</p>

Kevin Dorner

Ipetrich: Many of the the "kulaks" (landowners) were Orthodox churchmen. In order to seize the land for conversion into communal farms, it was necessary to destroy the churches. If Marx had been religious, it wouldn't have changed Marxism much IMHO...

Funny how Christianity started out: the early Christians living in the Roman empire were very close to the communists: they held whatever meager possessions and food they had in communal groups, disdained material wealth, were the hunted enemies of the powerful ruling class, and ended up becoming the powerholders themselves, with the equivalent corruption and loss of those founding values that power brings... just as the Russian Bolsheviks did. As, as they did, once in power they made a god of their founder. (Apparently the Romans would call the early Christians "atheists" when throwing them to the lions and Christians were known as "homewreckers" with their "anti-family values" derived from literal interpretation of Jesus' words that one must hate their parents to be accepted by him and from Christians leaving their familites to become devotees...)

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]</p>

Daggah

As a young boy I broke the microwave once - we had just done some housework or something (I forget now) and the microwave had been moved out of its normal spot. I was only a little kid and I tried to lift it and carry it back to its usual spot, and I subsequently dropped it. I owned up immediately.

I wonder if that will one day be a myth when I become famous!

stonetools

I was wrong.It was somebody else. See? I can admit I'm wrong

I think the key is that when it comes to mass murder, don't let anyone off the hook. Torquemada may not have been a true Christian, but then where were the true Christians who should have stopped him?
The atheist defense that Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not true atheists does'nt work for me, either. If they were not true atheists, what were they? .(And where were the "true" atheists to stop them?)
I'll tell you: they were true, intolerant, doctrinaire atheists, who caused mass mayhem, just like true, intolerant, doctrinaire religious folks.
Forgive ALL of us our trespasses... and let us work to see that it does not happen again.Make it so.

Pomp

stonetools,

The atheist defense that Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were not true atheists does'nt work for me, either. If they were not true atheists, what were they? .(And where were the "true" atheists to stop them?)

The argument is not that these men were not "true atheists." The argument is that they did not commit their atrocities in the name of atheism, they committed them in the name of their own authoritarian atheist ideologies. No one has ever been killed, to my knowledge, in the name of pure atheism.

Dr Rick

The theists were persecuted because their beliefs in religious authority and teachings contradicted the authority and teachings of Leninist-Marxism, not because they contradicted atheism.

If they had been atheists but had held another belief that denied the authority of the state, they would still have been persecuted.

<strong> Stalin and Torquemada both acted on analagous belief systems. They both held beliefs that demand blind faith and obedience and by their very nature require the estinguishment of opposing views. Religion and dictatorial politics share much in common with eachother.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: rbochnermd ]</p>

Dr Rick

You're a theist; better stay in practice and get used to repeating that over and over.

stonetools

The distinctions you guys draw are astoundingly fine and meaningless, IMO. What happened was that atheists killed religous folks in the name of their brand of atheism. And just what the hell is "pure" atheism? Babe, there are only the atheisms practised on earth, one of which was Stalinism and another Maoism. There are no other atheisms.

I would say that authoritarian religion and authoritarian atheist ideology have a lot in common. You would not say that because you want to to isolate some mystical pure atheism from the things that atheists actually do and have done. That way lies self delusion.
Hey, I'm wrong about something every day .At least I can admit I'm wrong and not try to weasel out of it with sophistical horse manure. You sir, are never wrong, I'm sure. You are a perfect... piece of work.

Pomp

stonetools,

The distinctions you guys draw are astoundingly fine and meaningless, IMO. What happened was that atheists killed religous folks in the name of their brand of atheism.

Sure. Just like Hitler killed thousands in the name of his "brand" of Christianity. To assert that Stalin commited his atrocities because he was an atheist is as absurd as asserting that Hitler committed his because he was a Christian. In both cases, authoritarian ideologies, not religious belief or the lack thereof, motivated the individuals involved to commit their atrocities.

And just what the hell is "pure" atheism?

The lack of belief in any god. Such lack, in and of itself, has never led anyone to commit atrocities, so far as I know. Only when combined with some authoritarian belief structure does atheism inspire killing. did Stalin try to stamp out religion because, as an atheist, he was offended by religious belief? No. Stalin tried to stamp out religion because his authority over religious people was threatened by the authority they believed their god to have over them.

Babe, there are only the atheisms practised on earth, one of which was Stalinism and another Maoism. There are no other atheisms.

You cannot "practice" atheism. It is not a belief system. It is the simple lack of one particular belief.