Heathen Dawn

Wicca doesn't involve the use of hallucinogens (drugs). The trance state is induced by various harmless means, such as chanting and beating drums. As for differentiating between the experiences, I think there's a fundamental difference between the pink-elephant hallucinogenic nonsense and the divine mysteries.

I had a divine mystery experience in a dream a few nights ago: I was the amazon trying to climb the green verge (strange enough, since in real life I'm a man), failing all the time, and my brain had shouts of "MISTAKE" all over it; then, one time, I / the amazon actually managed to climb the verge and fly right over it to the starry sky above. I hovered onto the Stone Palace in the starry sky, where I carved an oval, a cross and a snail. Then, all the other amazons came to me to meet and greet me.

For me this is proof that I'm not blind to the divine mysteries as I once thought I was. With some effort on my part in learning and doing Wicca, I hope to get into the trance state and behold such mysteries once again. I feel like a whole new world has opened up before me!

Heathen Dawn

Secular paganism is quite cool, but for me it has two insurmountable problems:

1. It is a naturalistic, materialistic system of thought. That means no room for life before or after death. The thought of ceasing to be, of being no more, simply scares me stiff. I've got to believe in some form of life after death or I'll go crazy with fear. Fear of final death, of oblivion, simply paralyses me and keeps me from living well. Wicca provides reincarnation as a solace from that scary prospect.

2. For me to be a happy secular pagan, I must enjoy life. I must be in a state of joy, and be part of a community where I'm loved. Well, I'm afraid I fail both counts. Life isn't going on well for me now, I don't have any community of friends to be with, I don't have a girlfriend to love and be loved by, and I'm downright depressed by lowly social position. In contrast, a few days ago I went to a pagan meetup - a meeting of Wiccans, Druids, Shamans and other pagans - and had a smashing time there. There isn't any secular pagan community available anywhere, whilst there is a pagan community. Without social ties I'm lost. Solitary religion is sad religion. Paganism provides me with the community of friends I need.

So, since my beliefs are always open to change, and I change them according as they enhance my emotional well-being (the most important thing in my priority list), I decided not to take the path of secular paganism. I'll be much happier in a supernatural pagan nature-based mystery religion like Wicca, where I can enjoy both worlds: that of attunement to beautiful nature around me, and that of opening myself to new horizons, to the divine mysteries.

Valmorian

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Putting your mind into an altered state, whether by drugs or by chanting, is going to alter your perceptions. The point is, how do you differentiate between hallucinated nonsense and 'divine mystery'? What criteria do you use?


Some people would call this experience a 'dream'. What reason do you have to believe that it is somehow more significant than, say, a dream where you go to work naked?

Heathen Dawn

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I don't know. There must be some way of telling the difference. I suppose one's feelings can be used to discern which is which.

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It was a dream; it was also a message from the other side. Unlike a dream of going to work naked, which is made up of a combination of worldly elements, this dream was otherworldly. I feel this was a mystery, so it must have been so.

Demosthenes

Then how can you claim that there is a difference between hallucinations and mystical experiences? Emotions are hardly a reliable way of telling the difference between the two or much less understanding the universe. Emotions color the reality and our inner lives, they do not bring out the truth.


Have you thought that perhaps you're trying to fullfill things by wish them to be so? You want it to be a mystical dream from the other side so that's what you're making it out to be.

I have had many vivid dreams full of vibrant colors and amazing emotionally envocative scenes that makes me lie in the bed thinking about them. Do I consider them to be messages sent from the otherworld?

No...they are nothing but the power of imagination and creativity of the mind and its introspective capability. The mind is also powerful in that it can easily deceive itself.

I'm not trying to put you down or anything, but for me, I'm happier with understanding that dreams are produced by the mind only instead of being sent by some supernatural means.

[ November 18, 2002: Message edited by: Demosthenes ]</p>

Heathen Dawn

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I beg to differ. Emotions are the key to the truth. It is my emotions that shape the truth. Truth is determined by feelings as well as by empirical research. Do not underestimate the importance of feelings.

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It is. I just know it is. I can't explain why, but I know.

1. I'm not happier with this kind of understanding.

2. Where does your certainty come from? Have you never had a sceptical thought about this theory? It is amazing how people are always sceptical of the mystical and supernatural but never sceptical of naturalistic claims.

Toto

HD - check your private messages.

Demosthenes

I base my certainty on empirical verfifications that the brain is the source of the dreams and the Occam's razor. Which is the simpler explanation? Dreams are the product of the mind or sent from a supernatural plane using supernatural methods that are able to circumvent the laws as we know them.

I favor the simplest one and I don't dogmatically insist that it is the absolute truth. I consider it to be truth because that is what empiricism is telling us. It may change in the future, maybe we'll find that there is something else going on. Then I'll have no choice but to accept it, it's called realism. I base my certainty on what we know and the state of knowledge is changing all the time, I accept that.

It is not accurate that we are skeptic of anything to do with mystism and superantural but not naturalistic things. We are skeptic of everything, but we also expect evidence and explanation of wha tis going on and how it fits in with the larger universe. Supernatural does not offer that, it requires that people take it at face value and with faith. That is not enough.

It may seems that we are less skeptic of naturalistic issues because we know that there will be explanations and corresponding evidence to back them up. If those turn out to be bogus or false, we reject them, simple as enough as we do for every other mysticism and supernatural claims that fail under scrutiny.

Demosthenes

Also, what truth are you espousing? Is it the truth of communing with nature?

Sure your feelings are shaping the truth for you, but it's a subjective truth, it has everything to do with psychology, philosophy, and religion, nothing to do with the objective universe. It doesn't care about your feelings or mine, or anybody else's, it just exists.

Valmorian

Hm, feelings are a poor indicator of reality.