HelenM

Rad,

Do you think atheists are unable to admit that they make mistakes and sometimes are deliberately mean, etc?

I don't find them unable to admit such things. In fact I'm not convinced they are less able to admit to them than Christians, in general.

You are implying it's not possible for a person to be honest about themself unless they know God has forgiven them. But - in my experience that's not true. I know atheists who are honest about themselves. They just are. They aren't afraid to be.

take care
Helen

Yellum Notnef

Radorth,while in yet another of his deep delusional rantings,tells Buffman "Read a history book sometime".

It don`t get anymore ironic and simply ridiculous than that.

Radorth,you are pure comedic gold! Thanks for yet another peak into your amusing (although incredidbly disturbing) fantasy world.
I have to admit that you often make me a little scared to go outside.

Sabine Grant

Hi Buffman...I can see how it can be insulting to a non believer to be included as a "sinner" according to christian beliefs. Perhaps, the middle can be reached as both parties admit that human nature is never all good or all bad. The term " sinner" has a vast definition of human traits from destructive anger to greed. Some individuals may be more predisposed to make choices based on those traits than others. However, if one defines "sin" as everything which results in destructive behavior which harms others including themselves.... how far from reality is "sin"? Born with it ? do we have instincts which lead our behavior from birth? I am trying to " dereligionize" the term "sin".
I am not one to argue the logic of your last post since I am not a conventional christian. What I propose here is that I personaly consider human nature to be a mixture of the "bad" and " the good" and I apply that consideration to all human beings. My definition of the concept of sin is not religious or even biblical.
Who could in their right mind be offended and feel that I am being prejudiced against mankind as a whole including myself as I consider "sin" to be the " bad part" of human nature? I simply do not believe that we are born in sin Buffman. I do not believe that I inherited sin thru Adam and Eve... but I do believe that my faith is the right path for me personaly to help me correct the nasty traits in my own individuality.
You must address your logic to a conventional biblical christian who believes that all that is written in the Bible is absolute truth.

Your question attributes to my thoughts the definition of sin as presented by a biblicaly convicted christian. I hope you can differenciate that my thoughts on the topic of sin do not fit that attribution.

Sabine Grant

Buffman and Rad... I was just rereading your posts commenting on the " missing the mark" theme.
How about defining that " missing the mark" theme not based on morality but based on the intent we have as we make a choice to promote a particular action. For example... does one give with the intent to help another person or with the intent to remove guilt? does one argue a point to build and promote reflection or to be right? does one discipline a child to direct the child to proper behavior or because of anger? does one marry a person to spend twenty years trying to change them or because one simply loves that person? ( I bet many of us can relate to that one....).

Is it all about morality contained in any religious book? or is it about our intent. What goes thru our heads, what emotions take control of us... what actions we decide to take according to those thoughts and emotions.

I know.. what I present is very simplistic. It can be that simple. And have nothing to do with religious morality or non religious morality. Nothing to do with being a God believing individual or a non believing individual. Just a personal choice. Each time.

ybnormal

Originally posted by HelenM
Rad,

Do you think atheists are unable to admit that they make mistakes and sometimes are deliberately mean, etc?

Hi Helen! Not only that, but in case you missed it, Rad has told us something to the effect that no xians are in prison... to Rad, the mark misser of mark missers, only Atheists are in prison. Ain't he a scream?

Oh, and altho I don't really call myself an Atheist, thanks for all the nice words of understanding of them/us.

Buffman

Rad

The standard was always virtually impossible and the Sermon on the Mount made it completely impossible.

I hope you realize the rather dramatic religious faith implications of what you just wrote.

Nevertheless the mark and example is Jesus.

So are you claiming that this biblical Jesus is more important than his so-called Father, GOD? Is that because he is easier, and less demanding, to follow? Or simply because he has been crafted into a more "forgiving" image in order to increase the sale of more insurance policies to the unwary?

Why are you speaking legalistically and simply ignoring a hundred scriptures which tell us that the law is useless except as our "schoolmaster"?

I am ignoring nothing. I am speaking rationally. I have no idea why you label it legalistic. Accurately, it is analytic. However, when you use the phrase "ignoring a hundred scriptures...." I am deeply amused. Over human history, there have been literally thousands of religious oriented writings produced. The issue that I have attempted to get you to focus on is what makes some of these writings Scriptures? (i.e.: Why, and by whom, are some of these writings declared divinely inspired? Holy?) Why are the Christian Eternal Life Insurance policies more valid than the Muslim, Hindu, etc. Eternal Life Insurance policies? Why are your writings more divinely inspired than theirs...or any of the thousands of other Religious Insurance Company policies that humans have bought into over the millennia?

What does Paul mean that "the strength of the law is sin."? Why do you think God made a "New Covenant" with us. If you understood what the buddhists were telling you, you would understand the paradox.

Sorry! I am not very concerned about what your Paul said or meant. I do not believe in fairy tales. Since you have no idea what I discussed with the Buddhist monks, you are inaccurately projecting your own beliefs and biases into our conversations. That is not the wisest thing to do.

Yes we do sin at an extraordinary rate. Why do you think God invented imputed righteousness?

I have no idea what you mean by "sin." Thus I am unable to determine what is or is not "an extraordinary rate." Additionally, since I do not believe in supernatural Gods, I can only offer an uneducated guess at why some humans developed a concept of "imputed righteousness" as an insurance policy advertisement. (Perhaps sales were flagging.)

I need what I need, and there is what there is available to me.

You "need" only three things....food, water and air. What you "want" is a whole different ballgame.

Jesus is a lousy "crutch" anyway. I suggest atheists can find all sorts of crutches and do.

I agree on both counts.

(Buffman: Define "saved." Saved from what? Saved for what?)

War, hatred. predjudice, self-righteousness, hypocrisy, nuclear holocausts, useless philosophies, the dictates of Lord Self, high blood pressure, being judged by your own rules, finding out God exists and that you wasted your life preaching that he did not.

I do not waste my time "preaching" about the non-existence of the supernatural. Neither do I waste my time in needless paralysis concerning any of the other shot-gun items on your list. I study each issue, learn all the accurate information I can about it, and then act according to my personal ability/capability to do so in the manner that will hopefully produce the most positive and productive outcome for all involved. What tends to disturb me are all those humans that waste their precious lives preaching that the supernatural does exist in order to find some form of motivation to do something positive in the here and now. Fortunately, a goodly number of the believers recognize the futility of such speculations and involve themselves in the positive and productive activities of resolving the natural world challenges. Habitat for Humanity, the Peace Corps, Feed the Children, Adopt a Child, The Red Cross, Etc. These are "Humanitarian" activities of a positive and productive nature regardless of who sponsors them. It is the deed, not the credit, that is of import.

(more anon)

Radorth

Really? I haven't seen many here. Perhaps you can find a few self-deprecatiing remarks made by atheists here and paste them for me. If what you say is true, they wouldn't mind me calling them "fellow hypocrites," would they? I don't think many appreciate it.

I'm saying that a Christian who understands human nature and the Gospel well will be more quick to forgive and forget. Much as I argue with all preaching, hypocrisy and the bull thrown around here, I don't even dislike anybody, personally. I understand we are all much alike as I have often said. Atheists (and many Christians, true), as a rule, pretend otherwise.

Of the Christian who understands Romans, I say this:

S/he understands that salvation comes through the power of grace, and they are lost without it. We do forget sometimes, but generally we appreciate God's grace, and speak of it to others.

S/he will not be self-righteous if s/he depends on grace, and understands why imputed righteousness is a needed.

S/he doesn't fantasize about some miraculous man made righteousness or philosophy coming out of thin air and changing history. There is a certain humility in realizing we are no holier than the last generation, or a hundred others who stuggled under far worse conditions anyway.

The fact that some holy Christians are kept ignorant of Roman's clear meaning just means they are going to see themselves as more holy than others. I well know God lioves that *(^%#&^%$@ Fenton Mulley as much as me. I think this ignorance applies to atheists as well because so many here are preachier and more patronizing than Billy Graham.

Jesus simply set a greater example, and demonstrated unsurpassed insights into the human condition, and gave the best advice for dealing with it. Criminy, secular therapists and church leaders are just didcovering the value of "confess your faults to one another that you might be healed." Peter said that 2000 years ago, and we're just now getting it.

I'm sorry, but history proves said condition has never changed, as a long list of great people have learned and acknowledged, and will continue to acknowledge.

Rad

ybnormal

Originally posted by Radorth
I understand we are all much alike as I have often said.

Yes, Rad, and this clearly demonstrates why you sound so confused.

From the start here, you have spent about half your time begging that xians are so much better than Atheists, and about half your time begging that WE are ALL about the same.

I do understand your needs there... about half your arguments (practical/real world) require your perceived xian supremacy, while about half your arguments (biblical/ideological) require your we-are-ALL-alike perceived xian symmetry.


Atheists... as a rule, pretend otherwise.

No, Rad, Atheists, as a rule, are realists... Atheists, as a rule, require neither your perceived symmetry, nor do Atheists require your perceived supremacy.

Atheists, as a rule, don't "pretend". Only because of your weak-kneed addiction to symmetry, are you unable to ADMIT that Atheists, as a rule, ARE extremely different than you, from our sole to our soul.

Buffman

Rad (Cont.)

Read a history book sometime. The greatest myth in history is that we can make the world better by excercising the human will, which is exactly what you believe. IMO that is the most incredibly self-righteous, ignorant and presumptious myth ever proffered around here.

And exactly how has your superstitious myth system improved human tolerance and understanding. How has it advanced our mastery over the environment and improved our survival opportunities? How has it liberated the human mind to explore and roll back the frontiers of the unknown and ignorance? As long as you continue to waste this life attempting to achieve a make believe afterlife, you will never appreciate the wondrous gift you already have. How sad!

Thanks. I'll keep my "myth" and you keep yours. At least mine doesn't ask anybody to do what nobody in history has ever been able to do. Bertrandt Russell was a pacifist who spent his whole life preaching we should be nice to each other. What the hell did he accomplish? I bet he didn't believe in "sin" either. Sargent York did more to stop evil in a day than Russell did in his whole life.

Riiiigghht! York disobeyed his supernatural God's Commandment. Russell did not disobey his own principles. Quite the contrary. Russell supported that Commandment and attempted to get others to live by it. (Perhaps you should find a better example.)

My friend, one nutball can undo all the good works of a million people, and it will keep happening.

You may well be right! However, is that any reason to stop trying to gain a more accurate understanding of ourselves and what produces aberrant human behavior? Should we return to making human sacrifices to appease the supernatural gods/goddesses? Should we runaway from reality and go hide in a make believe afterlife? That seems to be what you are recommending. And please, I do understand that humans are merely evolved predators and that religious dogma has been used to help domesticate the wild beast part of our genetic heritage...the Limbic Stem System part of our brains. That is what you seem to be most concerned about...domesticating that most primitive part of our genetic heritage. Obviously it scares you every time you look in a mirror. You see that primitive beast. You think that you know him (her) better than anyone else. You know the destructive nature of that part of you...and every other human being. If you are unable to trust yourself, how can you be expected to trust others? Therefore you believe that you need something greater than yourself to control your own omnivorous and predatory nature. Therefore you come to believe that everyone should believe as you do in order that you are protected from their "natural" predatory heritages. The bottom line appears to be that since you can't trust yourself to overcome your own predatory nature, even with the "free will" (rational, accurately informed, thought process) to do so, you have become addicted to, and therefore conditioned by, the only belief system that appears to work. That may be why you fear other faith and fact systems that work for others human beings and why you are working so hard to make your own faith system the quintessential one. FEAR! Fear of the unknown and death. Fear of the image in the mirror.

It isn't just I who lives in la-la land. You are preaching your own fantastic "salvation" message, but yours has no rational basis whatsoever, but is based on some imaginar man-made goodness nobody has ever seen.

Again I must caution you to examine your words closely. They imply that only "you" have found the way to be a better human being. That would mean that only you, and your fellow believers, are capable of determining between pain-no pain, right-wrong, good-bad, moral-immoral, ethical-unethical, and fact-fiction. To me, that would be the ultimate in human arrogance/self-righteousness.

Nice try though.

Thank you.

Dr Rick

It is human will, and not prayer or god-belief that makes the world better: airplanes, antibiotics, automobiles, computers, sanitation, vaccinations, music, and the internet were willed into existence by humans, not by prayer or through superstious beliefs.

Quote:

You are preaching your own fantastic "salvation" message, but yours has no rational basis whatsoever, but is based on some imaginar man-made goodness nobody has ever seen.

We can all see the things humans have made and done, but we can see nothing from the gods. We have seen the good that comes from discovery and rational thought, and the stagnation and oppression that comes from superstition .

Quote:

I'm saying that a Christian who understands human nature and the Gospel well will be more quick to forgive and forget.

Where's the evidence to support this assertion?

Quote:

Of the Christian who understands Romans, I say this:...S/he doesn't fantasize about some miraculous man made righteousness or philosophy coming out of thin air and changing history.

Chrisitans fantasize about miracles and make-believe sky-daddies.

Quote:

Criminy, secular therapists and church leaders are just didcovering the value of "confess your faults to one another that you might be healed."

huh?

Quote:

I'm sorry, but history proves said condition has never changed, as a long list of great people have learned and acknowledged, and will continue to acknowledge.

The human condition has improved in recent centuries not because of religion but in spite of it.

Rick