Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-24-2002, 08:17 AM

Quote:

It's wonderful to know that there are groups who counsel women experiencing PAS. In the article provided by Jagged Little Pill, the statistics show that there is a very real need for this type of service.

Um, who me? My article?? No way, Jose. Here's a quote:

Quote:

The American Psychological Association conducted an 8 year study involving almost 5,295 women, starting in 1979. The women were interviewed each year until 1987. The researchers found that the best predictor of of the women's well-being during the study was their well-being at the start of the study. Whether they had had an abortion or not during the interval covered by the study did not seem to affect their mental health. Neither did their income level, job status, educational attainment, marital status, etc. In other words, they were unable to detect the existence of PAS.

Where did you draw the conclusion that "statistics show a very real need" for PAS counseling??? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

babelfish · 11-24-2002, 08:32 AM

Whoa, JLP, I'm on your side, remember?

Did you read the rest of my post?

I'm talking about this:

Quote:

PAS seems to happen primarily to women who, at the time that they had an abortion:

Believed that the fetus was not a human being, and changed their beliefs later.
Believed that the fetus was a human being, but proceeded with the abortion anyway.
Felt pressured, either by family, friends, or circumstances, into having an abortion that the didn't want.
Did not received adequate counseling and information.

Pro-life sites on the Internet have many articles and links which conclude that PAS is very widespread. Pro-choice sites conclude that PAS is quite rare.

Even if it is extremely rare, and occurs mostly in women who may have been having psychological difficulties before they had an abortion, I think it would be a valuable service for this minority of women to get some sort of counseling.

That's all I meant.

11-24-2002, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Even if it is extremely rare, and occurs mostly in women who may have been having psychological difficulties before they had an abortion, I think it would be a valuable service for this minority of women to get some sort of counseling.

That's all I meant.

Okay. I sure wasn't attacking any of your other points. Just rather think it's a load of bunk designed to throw people off of the more important issues. Also could be quite counterproductive if the suggestion is ever *planted* that the experience was traumatic. Don't think this could not happen. Easily.

Nickle · 11-24-2002, 02:32 PM

Well, this isn't completely on topic, but a few years ago there was a anti-abortion campaign on campus here at UNT. I think it lasted several days and they had booths set up outside with large pictures and such.

Overnight people hung coat hangers from the trees all over campus with notes saying "This is the alternative," or something like that. I thought it was funny.

Sabine Grant · 11-24-2002, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by babelfish:
It's wonderful to know that there are groups who counsel women experiencing PAS. In the article provided by Jagged Little Pill, the statistics show that there is a very real need for this type of service.

I just find it a bit curious, though, that the same people who would look the other way at or even openly advocate the killing of abortion providers,

my reply : none of the co counselors I worked with supported the killing of anyone.

can show such compassion toward the actual perpetrators of the "crime" of abortion - the women who obtain the abortions. If abortion really is no different from the murder of a child, why are women who murder their children thrown into jail, while women who obtain abortions are counseled and treated with compassion?

my reply :

The woman in considered a victim ( one counseling group in named " Ava" ( American Victims of Abortion) and even counsels men who supported an abortion for a wife or girl friend. If compassion is to be given only to those who in your mind deserve it, then it cannot be called compassion anylonger. Compassion is not based on a scale of who deserves it and who does not.

The counseling process is also there to prevent future abortions and enable the woman to use proper and safe birth control. Abortion is not anything any woman jumps into joyfuly. It is a last resort choice based on " I cannot or do not want this baby". It is soly a last resort.

babelfish · 11-25-2002, 04:39 AM

Quote:

The woman in considered a victim

Sabine, I assume you meant to say "The woman is considered a victim.

Why is she?

Is it because she is mentally unstable at the time of her decision?

Then she would logically belong in an institution for the mentally ill.

Is it because she is mentally incapable of realizing what she is doing?

Then she is mentally handicapped, or a second-class citizen from whom information about what pregnancy actually is has been withheld for some reason.

I assert that the majority of women who get an abortion are none of these things. They are not mentally unstable, or mentally retarded, or uneducated. They realize the enormity of the decision whether to continue a pregnancy or not. They are not "victims." They know what they are doing.

babelfish · 11-25-2002, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Compassion is not based on a scale of who deserves it and who does not.

Do you think that women who commit infanticide are murderers? I do. Where was the compassion for Susan Smith or Andrea Yates? They deserve to be considered murderers and treated as such. Women who have abortions are not murderers, and not even Christian anti-choicers advocate that they should be treated as such. This seems like hypocrisy to me.

DougI · 11-25-2002, 09:25 AM

There's a documentary available on the internet about the history of reproductive rights in America. Interviews were conducted with patients and doctors about life before and after Roe v. Wade.

<a href="http://www.albany.edu/history/FromTheBackAlleys.html" target="_blank">http://www.albany.edu/history/FromTheBackAlleys.html</a>

Volunteering at two abortion clinics in town and dealing with the Christian terrorists on a regular basis I can predict with confidence what will happen after a victory. Next they will go after birth control. Many believe birth control to be a method of abortion so they'll have to get rid of it too. They anti-choicers are also very anti-homosexual (because they get so many abortions?) so they have to go after them. The anti-abortion movement has little to do with abortion but everything to do with control and an overarching agenda of promoting a right-wing Xian theocracy in America. Using abortion as a means to acquire a war chest and a database of fanatics is much easier than say going after birth control and homosexuals. So don't expect the anti-choice movement to disband after they repeal reproductive freedom because there are still many freedoms which they feel they have to take away.

<a href="http://www.maggotpunks.com" target="_blank">http://www.maggotpunks.com</a>

Sabine Grant · 11-26-2002, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by babelfish:


Do you think that women who commit infanticide are murderers? I do. Where was the compassion for Susan Smith or Andrea Yates? They deserve to be considered murderers and treated as such. Women who have abortions are not murderers, and not even Christian anti-choicers advocate that they should be treated as such. This seems like hypocrisy to me.

I am against the death penalty. You will need to bark at another tree. Hypocrisy to me is when someone uses the word compassion with conditions. Call it anything else but not compassion.

Sabine Grant · 11-26-2002, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by babelfish:


Sabine, I assume you meant to say "The woman is considered a victim.

Why is she?

Is it because she is mentally unstable at the time of her decision?

Then she would logically belong in an institution for the mentally ill.

Is it because she is mentally incapable of realizing what she is doing?

Then she is mentally handicapped, or a second-class citizen from whom information about what pregnancy actually is has been withheld for some reason.

I assert that the majority of women who get an abortion are none of these things. They are not mentally unstable, or mentally retarded, or uneducated. They realize the enormity of the decision whether to continue a pregnancy or not. They are not "victims." They know what they are doing.

It appears that you both formulated questions and answers which does not leave much room for anyone to answer.
Are you actualy interested in knowing why I used the word victim or does your final statement reflect that you have forged your opinion and anyone who might have differing opinions than yours can only be wrong?
I think a dialogue inspired by the desire to balance the reality takes two people.

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11-24-2002, 02:32 PM	#64
Nickle Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 385	Well, this isn't completely on topic, but a few years ago there was a anti-abortion campaign on campus here at UNT. I think it lasted several days and they had booths set up outside with large pictures and such. Overnight people hung coat hangers from the trees all over campus with notes saying "This is the alternative," or something like that. I thought it was funny.

11-25-2002, 09:25 AM	#68
DougI Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Wichita, KS, USA Posts: 932	There's a documentary available on the internet about the history of reproductive rights in America. Interviews were conducted with patients and doctors about life before and after Roe v. Wade. <a href="http://www.albany.edu/history/FromTheBackAlleys.html" target="_blank">http://www.albany.edu/history/FromTheBackAlleys.html</a> Volunteering at two abortion clinics in town and dealing with the Christian terrorists on a regular basis I can predict with confidence what will happen after a victory. Next they will go after birth control. Many believe birth control to be a method of abortion so they'll have to get rid of it too. They anti-choicers are also very anti-homosexual (because they get so many abortions?) so they have to go after them. The anti-abortion movement has little to do with abortion but everything to do with control and an overarching agenda of promoting a right-wing Xian theocracy in America. Using abortion as a means to acquire a war chest and a database of fanatics is much easier than say going after birth control and homosexuals. So don't expect the anti-choice movement to disband after they repeal reproductive freedom because there are still many freedoms which they feel they have to take away. <a href="http://www.maggotpunks.com" target="_blank">http://www.maggotpunks.com</a>

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