Evangelion

Devilnaut -

Well, from my point of view, I keep asking why God's foreknowledge necessarily results in determinism, and I just don't get an answer.

But anyway...

Fine.

No, I haven't said this at all. I've said that there is no contradiction between God knowing what I will choose, and the fact that I am free to choose between (a) and (b). The point you keep missing is that, regardless of which one I choose, God's foreknowledge is of the final outcome - whatever that may be.

Well, if you're going to stretch it that far, you'll have to argue that anyone who eats because they're hungry, is devoid of free will. Is that really what you want?

Yep.

Good luck!

LOL, whatever.

Yep.

Yep. And God knows that I will choose (a) over (b) because I will freely choose it.

Yep.

Yep.

False. I can choose either (a) or (b), and whichever I choose, God will know the final outcome. Remember, God's foreknowldge is of the eventual decision; He knows which decision I will make and adhere to.

False.

The last two points.

Liquidrage

Evangelion is pulling the equivalent of covering his/her ears and singing "na na na na na I can't hear you".

Devilnaut

This stance is not compatible with foreknowledge. You are saying that God has foreknowledge, but it flip flops constantly based on what you "will" choose. If God told me you would choose A tomorrow today, and I wrote it on a notepad, you are suggesting that if you chose B tomorrow, my notepad would magically morph to say B. This is not a possibility unless you subscribe to simply explaning away contradictions with magic.

You are denying that God's "foreknowledge" has any real existence before the event takes place. For it to have real existence it must predict the event that comes after it in time. If on every possible timeline, God must wait to actually see you make your decision before he knows what it will be, then foreknowledge is not possible.

Just to reiterate yet again, if God's foreknowledge is 100% dependant on the actual physical occurance of the event he supposedly has foreknowledge of, then it is in no sense foreknowledge. The moment God "takes" this knowledge with him to any moment before the (truly free) event with a (by definition) indeterminant outcome, it ceases to be knowledge because it is no longer true. Indeed, nothing is true of the outcome of a truly free event before the event takes place in time.

[ December 14, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

Liquidrage

if God's foreknowledge is 100% dependant on the actual physical occurance of the event

I don't believe you need any "if's". Or for that matter even need to put forth "how".

If the outcome of an event is known with 100% certainty before the event takes place then the outcome is predetermined.

Devilnaut

Yes, it is predetermined by my free will.

Shadownought

Hmm, my power went out for a few days and I completely forgot this thread existed

I still can't see how God's perfect foreknowledge is compatible with free will. Let me try a slightly different angle...

1) Assume there are two possible options for a particular decision, A and B.
2) Assume God knows beforehand that you will choose A, and not B.
3) God's foreknowledge is perfect.
4) Therefore, God's foreknowledge can never be wrong.
5) If you choose B, God's knowledge that you would choose A was wrong.
6) Therefore you cannot choose B.

I imagine you won't accept that argument, so let me go in another direction completely...

You said that you consider it possible that if time were rewound to just before a person makes a decision, they might make a different choice. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with the argument that God knows our decisions as a result of our decisions, but I'll assume you're arguing for an atemporal god. Here's my take on what I think you're saying...

1) Define free will to mean that if a person makes a decision, and time were regressed, they may choose differently if they have free will.
2) Assume that people have free will.
3) Assume that at all possible moments in time, someone, somewhere, is making a decision.
4) Assume that God knows with perfect accuracy all the choices that all humans will ever make, and the result of those decisions.
====================
5) If God knows the outcome of our future decisions as a result of our decisions, God must be existing in the future time, in order to see the outcome of those decisions.
6) Therefore, if God, in the past, already knew our present-day decisions, he must be existing in both our past and our present simultaneously.
7) So, if God always knows the outcome of all future decisions, he must exist in all possible moments in time at once.
8) This means that all possible moments in time exist at once.
9) This means that, for any given decision made with free will, time is essentially constantly being rewound to give the decision a chance to turn out differently.
10) Therefore, there is the constant possibility that some past decision is currently changing.
11) This can affect events later in time.
12) This means one of several possible things:
12a) Our timeline is constantly changing. Our history books are constantly being rewritten, and we are not aware of it. Because people's decisions are constantly changing, God's knowledge is also constantly changing; therefore, God is not always right. This contradicts (4), so this option is impossible.

12b) Our timeline is constantly changing. Our history books are constantly being rewritten, and we are not aware of it. For example, God knows that I will eat corn flakes tomorrow, because he is currently watching me eating them, tomorrow. However, because people's decisions are constantly changing, and God knows all choices that are ever made because he is omniscient and exists in all moments in time, God also knows that I will not eat corn flakes tomorrow, because he is currently watching me choose not to eat them, tomorrow. This option is either impossible, or an insane temporal disaster.

12c) Our timeline is not changing. Despite an infinite number of time frames existing simultaneously, and an infinite number of chances for people's decisions to change, they never do. This suggests that people do not have free will as defined in (1). If true, this option is impossible, because it contradicts (2).


I'm not an expert on temporal anomalies, but unless I'm severely misunderstanding your argument, I don't think you're making any sense.

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Shadownought ]</p>

PotatoError

The original question was:

"Does Free Will contradict the existance of a omniscient God?"

Thesists will argue no. Their main fallback (if all else fails) will be to argue that you cannot use logic to explain God.

While this argument is true (it certainly blows the question away), it must be pointed out that this is more damaging to thesists than to non-thesists. Half of religions reasoning and interpretation of texts is actually done using logic so by using a "God and logic aren't compatible" argument, they in fact void some of their religion.

In fact you could go further to argue that even thinking you know something about God is flawed, as any perception you have about god must have been derived logically.