Ed

Actually some quantum physicists would disagree with you on that law, they believe that matter,ie subatomic particles, can pop into and out of existence and in fact some believe that the entire universe popped into existence that way. My opinion is that we can only know if that law is correct if we are omniscient. How do we know that matter cannot be created? Especially if the source of that matter is outside the universe, that law only applies to inside the universe.

case

Ed:

Convenient that your cause would fall outside the scope of physical law. Just make the first cause outside of the universe and you can skip having to explain how that first cause was created.

By the way, I think Bree brought up a point, and one that I take serious offense to: classifying all rapists as practical atheists. I think a definition of a "practical atheist" might be in order, and then, if you like, you can explain pedophile priests.

NOGO

I do not know any scientific evidence in which energy/matter is created or destroyed.

Perhaps you can point me to this evidence that you are talking about.

Ed: How do we know that matter cannot be created?

How do we know that Zeus is not the creator of the world? How do we know that Pegasus never existed?

Questions asked with this kind of attitude cannot be answered.

In all experimentation that we have done so far matter/energy was never created nor destroyed. It is a law that is backed by a huge stack of evidence.

Ed: Especially if the source of that matter is outside the universe, that law only applies to inside the universe.

Fantasy! We have zero evidence that there is any such thing as "outside our universe".

ALL of the scientific evidence points to matter/energy not being created nor destroyed so that it is anything but an effect requiring a cause.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: NOGO ]</p>

lpetrich

But how can we be sure that the cause of the familiar Universe is really the First Cause? For all we know, the Universe's cause could also be caused, and that cause could also be caused, in an infinite regress.

Except that there exist numerous other creation stories. Some creation stories picture the familiar Universe originating from a cosmic egg -- that seems to me a good description of the Big Bang.

Only in Ed's imagination. Genesis 1 gets the order all wrong.

I wonder what Ed considers "complex". I ask that because he is likely to dismiss proposed counterexamples as "not really complexity".

NOGO

First there is no way of knowing if the BB is actually the start of the universe. For all we know we could be in BB number 3 or 103. The universe contracting and expanding repeatedly.

The story in Genesis has nothing to do with the BB theory. In Genesis Yahweh start by creating the earth. He then creates the firmament. The firmament is a dome over a flat earth. Yahweh then places the sun, moon and stars inside the firmament which he calls heaven.

Note that the stars are created last. The sequence is earth, sun, moon and then stars.
There was night and day before the sun was created.

This is NOT the big bang theory by any means.

Starboy

Ed,

I started this thread to discuss a topic you wanted to discuss. After it became clear to you that I was not going to follow the Christian script you had in mind and you were going to actually have to think and put forth good arguments you appear to be avoiding me. If you want to give up, just tell me you surrender. There is no shame in being wrong.

Starboy

Ed

Because in your earlier post you told me that the reason you do not cheat on your taxes or rape women is because it was against the law of the land and you would have to go to prison. Does that mean that if you did not get caught you would do these things? If not, why? Basically what I am asking is how do you as an atheist determine what is right and wrong?

[b] How have I been unkind to atheists? Christ has told us make judgements to determine who is a christian in order to present his gospel to unbelievers. You don't know for certain that I am a Christian. I could be just an atheist sock puppet.

Starboy

Ed, there is hope for you yet. You are asking a question instead of attacking a position you hold in your own mind. OK Ed, I’m going to tell you something that may shock you. I am a human being, I have a mother, I had a father, I have brothers and children, aunts and uncles and so forth. I was born and raised in the US. I went to school in the US. I have worked in the US for my entire adult life. It is all of these experiences that have taught me what is the right and wrong thing to do. Many of those experiences have been with Christians, and I have to tell you, the only people who have cheated, robbed, lied and deceived me were Christians. They have taught me a great deal about doing the wrong thing. I am glad that I had a loving family that taught me that doing the right thing is not about being selfish but doing what is best for your family, community, country and for mankind. Ed, GOOD NEWS FLASH! A-theist don’t live in a vacuum!

Starboy

Infinity Lover

There is no God to not-believe in.
Why is a default setting, turned into an alledged choice? You can choose to believe in God, or realize that choice doesn't really exist, but can you decide to not decide? Isn't atheist really theist-slang for person?

Are we alive, or not-dead? Are we somebody, or not-nobody? I think the real problem whith 'atheism' is, that something that really should go without saying, unfortunately is presumed to nessecitate saying.


You don't believe in God?

I don't 'what'?

...believe in God.

What??

Welll, there's our father in heaven called God and...

What the fuck have you been snorting? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ August 28, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

Ed

Morality is not god-made, it is inherent to His being.