Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CX · 10-29-2002, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ion:

epoq rocks!

Everybody, could we please try to stick to reasoned debate of the issue at hand refrain from personal squabbling and ad hominem?

Thanks,

Cowboy X - BC&A moderator

NOGO · 10-29-2002, 10:50 AM

The important thing in my view is that the genealogy in Matthew differs from the OT. There are four names missing and I suppose that Matthew removed them because he needed the 14-14-14 combination. That is, 14 generations from Abraham to David, 14 generations from David to the exile and 14 generations from the exile to Jesus.

Proof that this was all planned by God.

Kama · 10-29-2002, 08:09 PM

Oh golly you have debunked the gospels genealogy>>
therefore debunked christianity into illogical non
livable crap. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Commentary of the verses
Douay rheims
Jesus genealogy through Joseph his foster father?
Two evangelist, Matthew and Luke, have reckoned that descent by adoption as sufficient for claim to legal inheritance to Abrahams blessings and Davids kingdom.

<a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm" target="_blank">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm</a>
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VI
Copyright � 1909

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Baidarka · 10-29-2002, 09:57 PM

Kama
Why do you think that descent by adoption would be sufficient for Kingship in first century Israel?
Your link was a very interesting presentation of all the various arguments that I have heard concerning this problem, but although I find them clever, especially the levirate marriage argument, I am still unconvinced. The most unconvincing aspect of both genealogies is that they cancel themselves out when they deny that Joseph is the father of Jesus.
Julius Africanus noted that the family of Jesus managed to preserve their own geneology. Julius writes:
From the Jewish villages of Nazareth and Kokhaba, they [Jesus' relatives] travelled around the rest of the land and interpreted the geneology they had [from the family tradition] and from the Book of Days [The O.T. book of Chronicles] as far as they could trace it." [Quoted from Eusebius, Church History 1.7.14]
I think that this is very interesting and I wonder if this 3rd genealogy would agree with Mathew or Luke. Maybe it would be totally different than either of them and we would have 3 contradictory lists.
I think that it is obvious that the genealogies were developed to prove that Jesus was of the line of King David through Joseph, his legitimate Father by blood and that the ambiguous wording concerning Joseph in both Gospels were clumsy editorial additions. I also think that at least one of these genealogies is a complete fabrication.
Baidarka

Geoff Hudson · 10-30-2002, 12:40 AM

WERE THEY ORIGINALLY GENEALOGIES?

It is my view that there was a shorter list of names that was expanded by the editors into a "complete" human genealogies. This was done simply to convey the idea that Jesus was descended from David. The original list may have been something like that in Hebrews 11 which I think is NOT about faith, but a trajectory of the Spirit from earliest times. In the theology of the Spirit, faith is seen as a work requiring human effort, and is not by the grace of God. The writer of Hebrews would have seen faith as something powerless without the Spirit of God to energise it.

Hebrews Chapter 11 (My revised version)

Now the Spirit makes us certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By the Spirit, we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By the Spirit, Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By the Spirit, he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by the Spirit, he still speaks, even though he is risen. By the Spirit, Enoch was taken from this earth; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who believed God. And without the Spirit it is impossible to believe God.

By the Spirit Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By the Spirit, he condemned the people and became heir of the purity that comes by the Spirit. By the Spirit, Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By the Spirit he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By the Spirit, Abraham, even though he was past age -- and Sarah herself was barren -- was enabled to become a father because he believed him who had made the promise. And so from the Spirit came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

All these people believed the Spirit. They received the things promised; they saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country -- a heavenly one. Therefore the Spirit is not ashamed to be called their brother, for he has prepared a city for them.

By the Spirit, Abraham, when God tested him, offered up Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises offered up his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise up Isaac�s spirit from his body, from which, symbolically God did receive him. By the Spirit, Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future. By the Spirit, Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshipped as he leaned on the top of his staff. By the Spirit, Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones. By the Spirit, Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By the Spirit, Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to be ill-treated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of Egypt for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the Spirit of God as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By the Spirit, he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he believed him who is invisible. By the Spirit, he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

By the Spirit, the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. By the Spirit, the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days. By the Spirit, the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through the Spirit conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness the Spirit turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies.

These were all purified by the Spirit, and all of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that together with them we would all be made pure.

Geoff

Radorth · 10-30-2002, 07:17 AM

The 14-14-14 arrangement is problematic, and may indicate a desire for neatness or something, but concluding it disproves the Bible is nothing but a leap of faith we Christians have trouble making without some thought. There are numerous rational explanations for the "contradictions" however. My own conclusion is that the writers got them elsewhere, for Jewish scholars and families surely had genelogies pasted on walls everywhere.

And from the (gulp) excellent Catholic site:

Quote:

It cannot be denied that some of the genealogical links are omitted in the Biblical lists; even St. Matthew had to employ this device in order to arrange the ancestors of Christ in three series of fourteen each. At first sight such omissions may seem to be at variance with Biblical inerrancy, because the single members of the genealogical lists are connected by the noun son or the verb beget. But neither of these links creates a real difficulty:

The wide meaning of the noun son in the genealogies is shown in Matt., i, 1: "Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham". This phrase prepares the reader for the view that the noun son may connect a person with any one of his ancestors, however remote.
As to the verb beget, some writers maintain that the Hiphil form of its Hebrew equivalent refers to the immediate offspring, while its Qal form may denote a more remote generation. But this contention does not rest on any solid foundation. It is true that the Hiphil form occurs in Gen., v and xi; it is also true that the successive links of the genealogies in these two chapters appear to exclude any intermediate generation. But this is only apparent. Unless it be certain from other sources that the Hebrew word in question signifies the begetting of an immediate offspring, Gen., v, 15, for instance, may just as well mean that Malaleel at the age of sixty- five begot the grandfather of Jared as that he begot Jared immediately.

Rad

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]

10-30-2002, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:
The 14-14-14 arrangement is problematic, and may indicate a desire for neatness or something, but concluding it disproves the Bible is nothing but a leap of faith we Christians have trouble making without some thought. There are numerous rational explanations for the "contradictions" however. My own conclusion is that the writers got them elsewhere, for jewish scholars and families surely had genelogies pasted on the walls everywhere.

And from the (gulp) excellent Catholic site:

Rad

Hi Rad (gulp), the 14-14-14 arrangement points at a Thousand Year Reign of each major character that recalled the lineage to the end of his own 1000 year period.

10-30-2002, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Butters:

Now heres what confuses me. Why would Christians accept the fact the the Mother of God was hanging by her breasts in hell, rather than give up the notion that one genology is hers!

Hi Butters, Mary is the queen of Purgatory and since the Gosples take place in purgatory Mary comes down to hell where She leads Jesus towards crucifixion. Crucifixion is the end of the purgation period and therefore the end of hell for Jesus. A good description of this is found in James de Mille's "A Strange Manuscript."

Note here that purgatory becomes hell if we can't work out our own salvation and die nonetheless with the unresolved paradox. I think we have 42 months to this (Rev.13:5 and elsewhere it is about 1260 days).

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

CX · 10-30-2002, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:
The 14-14-14 arrangement is problematic, and may indicate a desire for neatness or something, but concluding it disproves the Bible is nothing but a leap of faith we Christians have trouble making without some thought.

Who is concluding that it disproves the Bible (whatever that is supposed to mean in the first place)? It only adds corroboration to the fact of the differing genealogies and the problem that causes for inerrantists. Plenty of Xian scholars accept that the genealogies differ and cannot be harmonized. The reason for the differences in my view are that the evangelists are working with different source material and have different theological aims in presenting them. AMt's genealogy is clearly programmatic with the specific aim of laying the foundation for future messianic claims in the text aimed at a largely Jewish-Xian audience.

CX · 10-30-2002, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:


Hi Butters, Mary is the queen of Purgatory and since the Gosples take place in purgatory Mary comes down to hell where She leads Jesus towards crucifixion. Crucifixion is the end of the purgation period and therefore the end of hell for Jesus. A good description of this is found in James de Mille's "A Strange Manuscript."

Note here that purgatory becomes hell if we can't work out our own salvation and die nonetheless with the unresolved paradox. I think we have 42 months to this (Rev.13:5 and elsewhere it is about 1260 days).

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

No disrespect, Amos, but where the hell do you get this stuff? The sheer prolixity of your ramblings is mind boggling.

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10-29-2002, 10:50 AM	#32
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	The important thing in my view is that the genealogy in Matthew differs from the OT. There are four names missing and I suppose that Matthew removed them because he needed the 14-14-14 combination. That is, 14 generations from Abraham to David, 14 generations from David to the exile and 14 generations from the exile to Jesus. Proof that this was all planned by God.

10-29-2002, 08:09 PM	#33
Kama Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: swarga Posts: 19	Oh golly you have debunked the gospels genealogy>> therefore debunked christianity into illogical non livable crap. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> Commentary of the verses Douay rheims Jesus genealogy through Joseph his foster father? Two evangelist, Matthew and Luke, have reckoned that descent by adoption as sufficient for claim to legal inheritance to Abrahams blessings and Davids kingdom. <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm" target="_blank">http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06410a.htm</a> The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VI Copyright � 1909 <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

10-29-2002, 09:57 PM	#34
Baidarka Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 590	Kama Why do you think that descent by adoption would be sufficient for Kingship in first century Israel? Your link was a very interesting presentation of all the various arguments that I have heard concerning this problem, but although I find them clever, especially the levirate marriage argument, I am still unconvinced. The most unconvincing aspect of both genealogies is that they cancel themselves out when they deny that Joseph is the father of Jesus. Julius Africanus noted that the family of Jesus managed to preserve their own geneology. Julius writes: From the Jewish villages of Nazareth and Kokhaba, they [Jesus' relatives] travelled around the rest of the land and interpreted the geneology they had [from the family tradition] and from the Book of Days [The O.T. book of Chronicles] as far as they could trace it." [Quoted from Eusebius, Church History 1.7.14] I think that this is very interesting and I wonder if this 3rd genealogy would agree with Mathew or Luke. Maybe it would be totally different than either of them and we would have 3 contradictory lists. I think that it is obvious that the genealogies were developed to prove that Jesus was of the line of King David through Joseph, his legitimate Father by blood and that the ambiguous wording concerning Joseph in both Gospels were clumsy editorial additions. I also think that at least one of these genealogies is a complete fabrication. Baidarka

10-30-2002, 12:40 AM	#35
Geoff Hudson Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK Posts: 318	WERE THEY ORIGINALLY GENEALOGIES? It is my view that there was a shorter list of names that was expanded by the editors into a "complete" human genealogies. This was done simply to convey the idea that Jesus was descended from David. The original list may have been something like that in Hebrews 11 which I think is NOT about faith, but a trajectory of the Spirit from earliest times. In the theology of the Spirit, faith is seen as a work requiring human effort, and is not by the grace of God. The writer of Hebrews would have seen faith as something powerless without the Spirit of God to energise it. Hebrews Chapter 11 (My revised version) Now the Spirit makes us certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By the Spirit, we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. By the Spirit, Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By the Spirit, he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by the Spirit, he still speaks, even though he is risen. By the Spirit, Enoch was taken from this earth; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who believed God. And without the Spirit it is impossible to believe God. By the Spirit Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By the Spirit, he condemned the people and became heir of the purity that comes by the Spirit. By the Spirit, Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By the Spirit he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By the Spirit, Abraham, even though he was past age -- and Sarah herself was barren -- was enabled to become a father because he believed him who had made the promise. And so from the Spirit came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore. All these people believed the Spirit. They received the things promised; they saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country -- a heavenly one. Therefore the Spirit is not ashamed to be called their brother, for he has prepared a city for them. By the Spirit, Abraham, when God tested him, offered up Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises offered up his one and only son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise up Isaac�s spirit from his body, from which, symbolically God did receive him. By the Spirit, Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future. By the Spirit, Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshipped as he leaned on the top of his staff. By the Spirit, Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones. By the Spirit, Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. By the Spirit, Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to be ill-treated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of Egypt for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the Spirit of God as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. By the Spirit, he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he believed him who is invisible. By the Spirit, he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. By the Spirit, the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned. By the Spirit, the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days. By the Spirit, the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient. And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through the Spirit conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness the Spirit turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. These were all purified by the Spirit, and all of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that together with them we would all be made pure. Geoff

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