Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ohwilleke · 07-08-2002, 12:42 PM

As I see it the religious landscape of the U.S. is broken into several discrete segments: (1) Left of Catholic, (2) Orthodox Christians, (3) Catholic (itself split into internal factions), (4) Right of Catholic Christians, (5) African American Christian Denominations, and (6) Non-Christians (Jews, Muslims, UnitarianUniveralist, Wiccans, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, non-religious, etc.).

The Catholic Church in the U.S. claims about 62 million members, although only about 50 million Americans identify as Catholic.

Orthodox Christians (Orthodox Church in American and various Greek, Russian, etc. immigrant Orthodox denominations) report 3.3 million members, but surveys show only about 145,000 members.

African American denominations, with something on the order of 10 million members, are predominantly Baptist (e.g. National Baptist Convention), Methodist (e.g. African Methodist Episcopal Church) and Pentecostal (e.g. several Churches of God). Almost all have a very different take on Christian theology than any of the predominantly white denominations. Often these churches take socially liberal (e.g. on abortion) and theologically conservative (e.g. on salvation through personal acceptance of Jesus Christ in your life as an adult) stances within evangelical protestantism, and thus aren't easy classified on the liberal or conservative divide.

Predominantly white left of Catholic and right of Catholic denominations are about equal in membership by church membership reporting, but left of Catholic denominations generally have more people who identify as members than the churches report, while right of Catholic denominations routinely overreport their memberships. (American Religious ID Survey compared to National Council of Churches figures).

In my mind left of Catholic consists mostly of:

ELCA Lutherans
United Church of Christ
Reformed Churches (generally historically ethnic dutch)
Presbyterian (USA)
American Baptist Convention Baptists
Episcopalians
United Methodist Church
Mennonite/Quaker
Disciples of Christ

In my mind right of Catholic consists mostly of:

Baptist (other than ABC and African American denominations -- mostly those with national in the name)
Predominantly white Pentecostal denominations (such as Assemblies of God)
Wesleyians
Presbyterian Church in America
Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans
Churches of Christ
Jehovah's Witnesses
Mormons
7th Day Adventists
Church of the Nazarene
Christian Missionary Churches (Holiness).

Naturally, there will be liberals in conservative denominations (Jimmy Carter was until just recently a Southern Baptist), and conservatives in liberal denominations (such as GWB in the generally liberal United Methodist Church), but I think it is fair to say that the denominatiional numbers are a good measure of how many people are on each side.

I would consider most of the left of Catholic churches to be the "mainline" or "liberal" Christians (basically the same thing), while those who are right of Catholic to be "fundamentalists" or "evangelicals" or "conservative Christians", who make the big headlines.

Another way to look at denominationalism is historically :

The earliest break is:
Roman Catholic-Orthodox-Ethiopian Christian (aka Coptic Christian). The Orthodox and Ethiopian Christian remain largely untouched in terms of forming new denominations to the present. Roman Catholicism has lots of battles over what is Orthodox especially pre-325 A.D. (when the Nicene Creed is agreed upon revolving questions over whether Jesus was all human, all divine, or a mix per the current Orthodoxy of the Trinity) and during sporadic periods in the middle ages (the various heresies fought by the inquisition).

In the Reformation ca. 1500, the main branches are Lutherans, Calvinist (leading ultimately to the Dutch Reformed Church, Presbyterians and United Church of Christ), and Anglicans (an only partially reformed church, hence, the Puritans who tried to fully deCatholicize Anglicanism). Basically, the Reformation involved disputes over issues like the celebate clergy, indulgenies, lay control of the church, the authority of hte pope, purgatory, use of languages other than Latin in services, etc.

Slightly after the main wave of the Reformation were the Anabaptists whose direct successors are the Quakers and Bretheran and Mennonites, but who also influenced the Baptists. Anapatists are distinctive in their firm opposition to war and to oaths, as well as being the first post-reformation denomination to have adult baptism as a norm.

Methodists were a fundamentalist leaning low church reform ca. 1700s within the Anglican Church formed by Wesley. This was not too successful in the UK but a big hit in pioneer America. This is also the root for African Methodists.

Baptists went from nothing to the predominant religion in the American South in the early 1800s, basically as an all new American fusion with just slight European influences (the Moravian Church was probably more of an actual influence than the Anabaptists from whom they take their name). Baptists are the root of American fundamentalism. Various episodes of reform within the general Baptist idea produced the Holiness Movement (Christian Missionary Churche and the Church of the Nazarene mostly), followed by the Pentecostal Movement. The ideas of the Baptists also lead to various other conservative splinter denominations in the U.S. (such as the Churches of Christ, which through a series of schisms produced the Churches of Christ and the Christian Churches which are conservative denominations, and the Disciples of Christ, a liberal denomination). These revial eras also spawned the Mormons, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. One of the most recent waves was Pentecostalism ca. 1900 (which involves a very charismatic holy spirit oriented service).

Many denominations (Presbyterian and Baptists, for instance) split over the issue of slavery.

Lutherans and the reformed churches were originally divided ethnically but merged into megadenominations as ethnic divisions faded over generations had passed since initial immigration.

Lutherans and Catholics are concentrated in the North (and in the Catholic Hispanic community), Baptists and Pentecostals in the South, Methodists are the most national in distribution.

A good survey to see what a person believes is found here: <a href="http://www.beliefnet.org/story/76/story_7665_1.html" target="_blank">http://www.beliefnet.org/story/76/story_7665_1.html</a>

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

ohwilleke · 07-08-2002, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tercel:
The Lutheran Church is of all Protestant Churches, the closest to the RCC. The Lutherans don't really consider themselves fully Protestant, but in a separate category half-way between the Protestant's and RCC.

The rest of your description was pretty on target. But, Episcopalians (also known as Anglicans) are far closer to the Catholic Church than Lutherans, and Lutherans generally consider themselves the first Protestant church (speaking as someone who grew up Lutheran and spent all my college years in an Episcopal Church). Martin Luther is considered the person who started the Reformation. Anglicans, in contrast, split mostly so King Henry could get a divorce. Anglicans are far more likely to use incense, engage in laying on off hands to heal, genuflect (make the sign of the cross), talk about Saints, and so on than Lutherans. Anglicans have doubts about whether they are Protestants, Lutherans do not. Some religion experts call the Anglican church "Anglo-Catholic"

The confusion is easy to make, however, since Anglicans, Lutherans, Orthodox and Catholics are liturgical churches (which means that their church services have lots of spoken or sung script that the clergyman and congregation follow in a subdued call and response manner), while most other denominations of Christianity follow a simpler hymns, prayers and sermon format without the same elaborate scripted liturgy. Both Anglican and Lutheran liturgy is rooted in the Catholic mass.

Methodists are basically Anglicans who ditched the Liturgy. The rest of Protestantism can generally trace its worship format (and often church organization) to the Calvinists.

A couple of good general sites on Christianity are <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/christ.htm" target="_blank">http://www.religioustolerance.org/christ.htm</a>
and <a href="http://www.adherents.com" target="_blank">www.adherents.com</a>

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

ohwilleke · 07-08-2002, 01:04 PM

One more note: Both Canada and Australia have United Churches which basically represent mergers of what in the U.S. remains a separate United Methodist Church (i.e. Methodist) and a United Church of Christ (i.e. Calvinist)

Canada has about the same proportions of Christians and non-Christian theists as the U.S. (and similar levels of church attendance), but different mixes of each. Canada has proportionately more Orthodox and Catholic Christians, a similar proportion of liberal Christians (although more concentrated in the United Church of Canada and Anglican Church than U.S. non-Catholics), a much smaller proportion of conservative Christians and virtually no African American Christian denominations. It has about the same proportion of non-Christian theists overall, but with fewer Jews than the U.S., and more Hindus, Sihks, Muslims, etc., proportionately.

[ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

Vesica · 07-11-2002, 09:52 AM

I don't think I can out-do that amazing summary above but another way to appraoch the whole demoninational issue could be to see how the different sects "feel" about different issues....I have always been surprised to see how many different takes there are on issues like abortion or same sex relationships that are traditionally approached as 'All Christians condem this.'

Then again, this approach will only tell you what the governing bodies of these demoninations think...There is room for a lot a devience from the 'offical doctrine' in individual churches, especially in those right of Catholicism sects.

Vesica · 07-11-2002, 10:05 AM

I will add this as well, since it took me years to figure it out on my own....

The Anglican and Episcopalian are fairly equivilant in doctrines and use very similar prayer books but I never understood the difference until someone actually explained that Episcopalians are an Americanized version of the Anglican church since until modern times Americans rather frowned on having connections to the Church of England...

While we are discussing demoninational history, what is the other name for the Amish faith?

And, are there still any Shakers around?

CX · 07-11-2002, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vesica:
While we are discussing demoninational history, what is the other name for the Amish faith?

Are you perhaps referring to the Menonites? They maintain a similar lifestyle (shunning electricity etc.) but as far as I know are a different denomination entirely from the Amish.

Vesica · 07-11-2002, 10:38 AM

Nope....Not the Menonites...They are unique from the Amish as you said...

I have a dim recollection of there being another name for the Amish or that 'Amish' was more of an outsiders way of refering to them...

....I suppose I would be hard pressed to find a practicing member to tell post a response telling me what they call themselves!

Marduk · 07-11-2002, 02:55 PM

"Nope....Not the Menonites...They are unique from the Amish as you said..."

All Amish are Menonites but not all Menonites are Amish. Menonites blend better, they live in normal cities and communities, are very tolerant, and oppose Government mixing in religion. There is a Menonite Church downtown right next to a gay bar, they get along well, and are welcome to worship in the church but I don't think they can become church members and remain in a gay relationship, but I'm not 100% sure on this point.
They are sort of like fundamentalists, but know how to mind their own business and practice what they preach.

ohwilleke · 07-11-2002, 03:51 PM

More on the Amish can be found here:

<a href="http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml</a>

Old Order Amish Mennonite Church is the main denomination. Sometimes they are called "The Plain People." They come from the same Anabaptist traditions as the Brethren, Mennonites and Quakers. Sometimes these groups are collectively called "Peace Churches" for their adherence to a strong anti-war stance.

There are seven Shakers left. Another site which I don't reference said that there were 87 Shakers in 1800. At their peak there were about 6,000. (The website referenced is a very good resource on cults which they prefer to call New Religious movements).

<a href="http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Shakers.html" target="_blank">http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Shakers.html</a>

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]

07-08-2002, 12:42 PM	#11
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	As I see it the religious landscape of the U.S. is broken into several discrete segments: (1) Left of Catholic, (2) Orthodox Christians, (3) Catholic (itself split into internal factions), (4) Right of Catholic Christians, (5) African American Christian Denominations, and (6) Non-Christians (Jews, Muslims, UnitarianUniveralist, Wiccans, Buddhists, atheists, agnostics, non-religious, etc.). The Catholic Church in the U.S. claims about 62 million members, although only about 50 million Americans identify as Catholic. Orthodox Christians (Orthodox Church in American and various Greek, Russian, etc. immigrant Orthodox denominations) report 3.3 million members, but surveys show only about 145,000 members. African American denominations, with something on the order of 10 million members, are predominantly Baptist (e.g. National Baptist Convention), Methodist (e.g. African Methodist Episcopal Church) and Pentecostal (e.g. several Churches of God). Almost all have a very different take on Christian theology than any of the predominantly white denominations. Often these churches take socially liberal (e.g. on abortion) and theologically conservative (e.g. on salvation through personal acceptance of Jesus Christ in your life as an adult) stances within evangelical protestantism, and thus aren't easy classified on the liberal or conservative divide. Predominantly white left of Catholic and right of Catholic denominations are about equal in membership by church membership reporting, but left of Catholic denominations generally have more people who identify as members than the churches report, while right of Catholic denominations routinely overreport their memberships. (American Religious ID Survey compared to National Council of Churches figures). In my mind left of Catholic consists mostly of: ELCA Lutherans United Church of Christ Reformed Churches (generally historically ethnic dutch) Presbyterian (USA) American Baptist Convention Baptists Episcopalians United Methodist Church Mennonite/Quaker Disciples of Christ In my mind right of Catholic consists mostly of: Baptist (other than ABC and African American denominations -- mostly those with national in the name) Predominantly white Pentecostal denominations (such as Assemblies of God) Wesleyians Presbyterian Church in America Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans Churches of Christ Jehovah's Witnesses Mormons 7th Day Adventists Church of the Nazarene Christian Missionary Churches (Holiness). Naturally, there will be liberals in conservative denominations (Jimmy Carter was until just recently a Southern Baptist), and conservatives in liberal denominations (such as GWB in the generally liberal United Methodist Church), but I think it is fair to say that the denominatiional numbers are a good measure of how many people are on each side. I would consider most of the left of Catholic churches to be the "mainline" or "liberal" Christians (basically the same thing), while those who are right of Catholic to be "fundamentalists" or "evangelicals" or "conservative Christians", who make the big headlines. Another way to look at denominationalism is historically : The earliest break is: Roman Catholic-Orthodox-Ethiopian Christian (aka Coptic Christian). The Orthodox and Ethiopian Christian remain largely untouched in terms of forming new denominations to the present. Roman Catholicism has lots of battles over what is Orthodox especially pre-325 A.D. (when the Nicene Creed is agreed upon revolving questions over whether Jesus was all human, all divine, or a mix per the current Orthodoxy of the Trinity) and during sporadic periods in the middle ages (the various heresies fought by the inquisition). In the Reformation ca. 1500, the main branches are Lutherans, Calvinist (leading ultimately to the Dutch Reformed Church, Presbyterians and United Church of Christ), and Anglicans (an only partially reformed church, hence, the Puritans who tried to fully deCatholicize Anglicanism). Basically, the Reformation involved disputes over issues like the celebate clergy, indulgenies, lay control of the church, the authority of hte pope, purgatory, use of languages other than Latin in services, etc. Slightly after the main wave of the Reformation were the Anabaptists whose direct successors are the Quakers and Bretheran and Mennonites, but who also influenced the Baptists. Anapatists are distinctive in their firm opposition to war and to oaths, as well as being the first post-reformation denomination to have adult baptism as a norm. Methodists were a fundamentalist leaning low church reform ca. 1700s within the Anglican Church formed by Wesley. This was not too successful in the UK but a big hit in pioneer America. This is also the root for African Methodists. Baptists went from nothing to the predominant religion in the American South in the early 1800s, basically as an all new American fusion with just slight European influences (the Moravian Church was probably more of an actual influence than the Anabaptists from whom they take their name). Baptists are the root of American fundamentalism. Various episodes of reform within the general Baptist idea produced the Holiness Movement (Christian Missionary Churche and the Church of the Nazarene mostly), followed by the Pentecostal Movement. The ideas of the Baptists also lead to various other conservative splinter denominations in the U.S. (such as the Churches of Christ, which through a series of schisms produced the Churches of Christ and the Christian Churches which are conservative denominations, and the Disciples of Christ, a liberal denomination). These revial eras also spawned the Mormons, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. One of the most recent waves was Pentecostalism ca. 1900 (which involves a very charismatic holy spirit oriented service). Many denominations (Presbyterian and Baptists, for instance) split over the issue of slavery. Lutherans and the reformed churches were originally divided ethnically but merged into megadenominations as ethnic divisions faded over generations had passed since initial immigration. Lutherans and Catholics are concentrated in the North (and in the Catholic Hispanic community), Baptists and Pentecostals in the South, Methodists are the most national in distribution. A good survey to see what a person believes is found here: <a href="http://www.beliefnet.org/story/76/story_7665_1.html" target="_blank">http://www.beliefnet.org/story/76/story_7665_1.html</a> [ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ] [ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

07-08-2002, 01:04 PM	#13
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	One more note: Both Canada and Australia have United Churches which basically represent mergers of what in the U.S. remains a separate United Methodist Church (i.e. Methodist) and a United Church of Christ (i.e. Calvinist) Canada has about the same proportions of Christians and non-Christian theists as the U.S. (and similar levels of church attendance), but different mixes of each. Canada has proportionately more Orthodox and Catholic Christians, a similar proportion of liberal Christians (although more concentrated in the United Church of Canada and Anglican Church than U.S. non-Catholics), a much smaller proportion of conservative Christians and virtually no African American Christian denominations. It has about the same proportion of non-Christian theists overall, but with fewer Jews than the U.S., and more Hindus, Sihks, Muslims, etc., proportionately. [ July 08, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

07-11-2002, 03:51 PM	#19
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	More on the Amish can be found here: <a href="http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.800padutch.com/amish.shtml</a> Old Order Amish Mennonite Church is the main denomination. Sometimes they are called "The Plain People." They come from the same Anabaptist traditions as the Brethren, Mennonites and Quakers. Sometimes these groups are collectively called "Peace Churches" for their adherence to a strong anti-war stance. There are seven Shakers left. Another site which I don't reference said that there were 87 Shakers in 1800. At their peak there were about 6,000. (The website referenced is a very good resource on cults which they prefer to call New Religious movements). <a href="http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Shakers.html" target="_blank">http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Shakers.html</a> [ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: ohwilleke ]</p>

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07-11-2002, 09:52 AM	#14
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	I don't think I can out-do that amazing summary above but another way to appraoch the whole demoninational issue could be to see how the different sects "feel" about different issues....I have always been surprised to see how many different takes there are on issues like abortion or same sex relationships that are traditionally approached as 'All Christians condem this.' Then again, this approach will only tell you what the governing bodies of these demoninations think...There is room for a lot a devience from the 'offical doctrine' in individual churches, especially in those right of Catholicism sects.

07-11-2002, 10:05 AM	#15
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	I will add this as well, since it took me years to figure it out on my own.... The Anglican and Episcopalian are fairly equivilant in doctrines and use very similar prayer books but I never understood the difference until someone actually explained that Episcopalians are an Americanized version of the Anglican church since until modern times Americans rather frowned on having connections to the Church of England... While we are discussing demoninational history, what is the other name for the Amish faith? And, are there still any Shakers around?

07-11-2002, 10:38 AM	#17
Vesica Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sunny FLA USA Posts: 212	Nope....Not the Menonites...They are unique from the Amish as you said... I have a dim recollection of there being another name for the Amish or that 'Amish' was more of an outsiders way of refering to them... ....I suppose I would be hard pressed to find a practicing member to tell post a response telling me what they call themselves!

07-11-2002, 02:55 PM	#18
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Nope....Not the Menonites...They are unique from the Amish as you said..." All Amish are Menonites but not all Menonites are Amish. Menonites blend better, they live in normal cities and communities, are very tolerant, and oppose Government mixing in religion. There is a Menonite Church downtown right next to a gay bar, they get along well, and are welcome to worship in the church but I don't think they can become church members and remain in a gay relationship, but I'm not 100% sure on this point. They are sort of like fundamentalists, but know how to mind their own business and practice what they preach.

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