jdawg2

lol, I was in a discussion <a href="http://www.okayplayer.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/8588.html" target="_blank">here</a> were someone used that argument. I did bring up the sperm and egg example...(I'm Jason_A there, btw)

KeithHarwood

On thinking about it further, the entropy change when a chromosome is duplicated with a defect is exactly the same as the entropy change when it is duplicated without a defect. Therefore, the only way that the creationists can conclude that evolution decreases entropy is if they are talking about the entropy of information theory. The second law of thermodynamics applies to thermodynamics. It doesn't apply to information theory.

tgamble

So what this guy is saying is that evolution is testable, makes predictions and is falseifyable?

I'm always amazed that creationists can deny that evolution is any of the above and then contradict themselves.

Evolution can't be falsefied and I've just falseified it. What a joke!

Tim Thompson

jdawg2: And the second law of thermodynamics, IIRC, refers to a closed system ... there's this big huge thing called the sun that gives us energy all the time.

This is the core of the creationist "bait & switch". The 2nd law is quite specific, the entropy of a thermodynamically isolated (i.e., "closed") system, is restricted to changes greater than or equal to zero. There is a good reason for this, it's because you can decrease the entropy of any system, by sucking energy out of it.

So if you point out that the entropy in some open system, like the biosphere, can decrease, they will immediately respond with "only if there is a program (or maybe 'process' or whatever) that allows it. That's how they squeeze God in there, as the author of the "program". But once they start talking about this other process, the 2nd law is no longer part of the discussion, though they will insist that it still is. Very wrong.

JH: 2) You can't really (can you?) numerically specify just how much entropy is introduced by a mutation.

You certainly can, you just have to be careful about your definition of "entropy". There is a lot of work on this by <a href="http://www-lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/" target="_blank">Tom Schneider</a>, particularly in "<a href="http://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/paper/ev/" target="_blank">The Evolution of Biological Information</a>".

KH: Therefore, the only way that the creationists can conclude that evolution decreases entropy is if they are talking about the entropy of information theory.

Indeed. The creationists who are bright enough to figure it out, realize that they are talking about informational entropy, and not thermodynamic entropy. And indeed, the 2nd law of thermodynamics, is not necessarily applicable without restrictions or modifications to problems of information theory.

And that's one reason why Tom Schneider's work is so interesting. He is one of surprisingly few people who seem to have a lot of work put into the idea of information in a genome at the molecular level. He has outlined how information increases with time in a genome (not hard to see in concept, but the "devil" is in the details). His work is important enough to have been targeted several times by William Dembski, Godfather of "intelligent design" (see <a href="http://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/paper/ev/dembski/rebuttal.html" target="_blank">Schneider's rebuttal</a>).

Also note that "entropy" & "disorder" are not synonymous, although creationists treat them as if they were. This allows them to obfuscate the issue. In fact there are instances where it is known that "disorder" increases even as entropy [/i]decreases[/i] (see Insight into Entropy, Daniel F. Styer, American Journal of Physics 68(12): 1090-1096, December 2000).

I have tried to write my own pages, at the moment unfinisehd, but perhaps in acceptable shape: <a href="http://www.tim-thompson.com/entropy.html" target="_blank">Adventures in Entropy</a>. No discussion of creationism specifically (yet), but I try to give a pretty complete idea of what entropy is, and is not. It might help somebody.

Other web resources of note:

• <a href="http://www.endeav.org/evolut/text/denbig1/denbig1e.htm" target="_blank"> Note on Entropy, Disorder and Disorganization</a>
• <a href="http://www.acchurch.com/reading/evolution.php" target="_blank">Entropy, God and Evolution</a>
• <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html" target="_blank">Thermodynamics, Evolution and Creationism</a>