crocodile deathroll

Out of cosmic inflation at the early phases of the big bang we have a universe of almost seamless diversity there would be largely very different universes, but still many which are almost identical differing by a difference of only one quanta of displaced energy which only differs by the position of one electron switching from an inner shell to the outer shell of one atom to the outer shell the inner shell of another one with the net amount of energy and mass of both universes being identical. So much so, that out brain being composed of identical matter and identical neural process in both of them, perceive them as the same universe.

crocodile deathroll

incommendatus

I'm not a mystic, so definitely not a "soul". I'm not sure of where in the brain the decision is made, but the material of the decision are neurons, signals traveling across the neurons and chemicals that trigger signals.

If you are attempting to say that since the materials of decision are concrete, then we as humans live a deterministic life, where physics properties are the determining force, I will have to object. I can only do so via a metaphor and only because there isn't any macro-evidence for determinism.

The metaphors are as follows:

Gravity doesn't affect the MESSAGE that travels though phone lines.

or

Metal is more dense than water, but when beaten in to the correct shape, such as a boat hull, it can float on water.

I'm working on a better explaination. The evidence which I was speaking of was that physics laws are infalliable, humans aren't. If our decisons were determined by an infalliable force, wouldn't we be infalliable as well?

excreationist

No, we can be mistaken. Let's say there was a robot that learnt from its environment and it malfunctioned a bit or inferred something that wasn't true (e.g. that water can be driven over). It would have a problem due to some faulty reasoning or corruptions in its inputs/memory retrieval system. This is possible in a deterministic universe.

incommendatus

So, are you inferring that free will is merely a malfunction? Any time that someone makes the wrong decision, it is a glitch?

excreationist

Exactly...

And sometimes these glitches might happen more than other times - e.g. if the person is on LSD, or drunk or hasn't slept for days.

It can also happen during freak accidents. e.g. a person might drive around a corner assuming that the road is clear, then run over a cat. They were wrong in that case - also in a deterministic way.

crocodile deathroll

What about the hypothetical situation when the phone line passes through the event horizon of a black hole wouldn't that be effected by gravity of to a lesser degree, the phone line links an object as dense as a neutron star the effect of time dilation would still be there, and even a phoneline from base camp at Mt Everest to the summit would still have an effect even though it would be too small to measure.

Christopher Lord

A message must be carried in a physical media. Thus gravity will always be able to affect a message.

On the topic of free will, at every moment you make a decision. If you rewind time (such that the exact state of the universe is recreated) and run it again, your past self will have no choice but to make the same choice. Time travel movies often show people acting slightly different every time through the loop. Nay, if the universe restarted like that, there would be no deviation unless you manage to interfere.

Even the most horrible of events will be recreated down to the exact path of every atom, including those of every person.

(of course assuming quantum effects are also rewound)

Such a pure reboot is to say the least hard, so its rather academic isnt it?

Christopher Lord

I think I may have said this before, maybe even in this topic (its quite long).

Perhaps there are two kinds of free will being talked about.

There is pure free will, which I dont think we have. This would allow us to make a different choice if the universe was restarted 3 hours prior to the choice.

And there is human free will (which I think is real in the same way an idea is real inspite of not existing in the physical), which is the ability to decide to reply to a message, pick up a case of beer, sit down instead of stand, vote for a candidate, etc. These all come down to deterministic events (chemical levels, etc) but there are so many abstraction layers we don't notice it.

crocodile deathroll

I do not believe the version of free will where something akin to a "soul" can push and move massive objects like atoms or even electrons around at will which suggest that this soul has mass in itself. This is the pure free will object I believe does not exist.
But it is more of a subjective interaction between near identical parallel universes each only differs by the history of your brain from the time you believe you made the choice back a few seconds ealier.
These differences in parallel brains in the near identical universes will only differ by something as minor as a quantum flutuation in your microtubules as Stuart Hameroff suggested or something else entirely. Your conscious attention turns to one universe of the other depending on the choice you made.
But if any one tried the search for that quantum flutuation the lead to your choice, then you will find the following biological processes had quickly overwhelmed it, attributing your choice to biological processes that had overridden it.
I would be like trying to look for the mechanical trigger device in a nuclear bomb after it had gone off.


crocodile deathroll

excreationist

I think a lot of the reason you believe this is because people can see a rat or an old man within a line-art picture. I gave a simpler explanation for this earlier in this thread.