brighid

As much as I disagree with theism I think comparing theists/theism with the KKK is stretching things way too far. The KKK organization is simply too narrow to compare to the broad context of theism, even Christianity. There is simply too much diversity in thought (as seen by the thousands of denominations) to equivocate them with a very focused organization like the KKK.

You can probably tell many things about what a person believes by the denomination he/she belongs to, but then again they may belong to a Church but not actually believe what the Church teaches. I think we all know people just like that and I think many of us here have once been that person who still belonged to a Church, but wasn't really a theist.

I personally think attending a Klan rally requires a much more serious belief structure then attending a Church service on Sunday.

Although I do agree that one can tell alot about a person who is a member of an organization like the Klan, I do not think that one can apply that same standard to all groups.

I also think it unfair to feel that all Catholic Priests are pedophiles because some are and in such damning cases it seems like the best course would be to actually determine the truth of such a claim before finding someone guilty of a crime he may not have committed.

As atheists we don't like to be lumped in with Stalin and Mao, or even falsely with Hitler. We shouldn't apply the same standards to others we don't wish to have applied to ourselves.

Brighid

Nowhere357

I absolutely agree with you and Helen. Individuals should be judged as such; generalizations are generally (!) just wrong.

I included a qualifier in my generalization, showing I understand and accept the concept.

You agree that membership in a group can be an indicator of the nature of an individual. The question then becomes how accurate the indicator is. The KKK is a good indication, imo, while Priests and lawyers far less so.

At any rate, in no case would I presume of an individual that the indicator is accurate in the specific case. In fact, I give the benefit of the doubt.

Calzaer

Brighid: I'm talking about Catholic Priests (of which there is only, AFAIK, one denomination), not lay theism in general.

brighid

Thanks for the clarification, but even within Catholicism there is quite divergent thought ... from orthodox to liberal, including the priesthood. A good friend of mine attends a VERY liberal Catholic Church.

I am not sure your meaning though, and forgive me if I am misunderstanding. Do you mean to say that a Catholic Priest should be judged by the actions of his pedophilic peers (and pedophilia has nothing to do with Catholic beliefs, but has been allowed to exist under this system) ... in the same way a member of the KKK might be judged?

Brighid

abe smith

Interesting that page A 1 of this date's Boston Globe (or maybe page A 2? I forget.) reports a series of incidents, apparently not-connected, in which Boy Scouts involved in an "Explorer"
program as a kind of "interns" in Police departments have been subjected to various sorts of sexual abuse at the hands of the Police officers from whom they were learning about Police practices.... It is true that these incidents appear to have been
few and not-part-of-the-program.... And/But?
These facts (if they are facts) appear to indicate that stereotypes about human group-behaviours & characteristics are indeed *unreliable*. "There aren't any (human-behavioural) Type Forms." Is this news?

Sol

Should certain professions and types of employment continue to have codes, canons and standards of ethics? Should there be greater penalties for those who break them, since they agree to and receive additional training (in many cases) and there is implied trust and sometimes perceived power by the public sector?

brighid

YES! I think part of the problem is that many of these "ethical" and "legal" violations are handled in house and not by independent people who could more objectively apply those standards and legal rules, as well as penalize offending individuals.

Brighid

Jennie

It is my understanding that the percentage of Catholic priests that are pedophiles is about that of the general population. The big problem was the hubris of the hierarchy, thinking they could protect these priests from the criminal justice system. So I don't think there's any particular reason to think that most Catholic priests aren't perfectly nice people. Catholic bishops and up though, are another matter because of their willingness to cover up for the rare pedophile priest.

brighid

Furthermore, the Catholic Priesthood does not have a monopoly on child molestors as plenty of Protestant denominations protect and cover up for the pedophiles in their ranks.

I do think that the percentage of pedophiles in the Church is about equal to that in the general population, but I do not think the general population is equal to (in numercial value) the number of Catholic Priests. I think there may be a higher concentration amongst this profession because the Church hierarchy sets up a system of power and secrecy that fosters the necessary components for a pedophile to be a part of the system, and maintain his activities without fear of retribution. Unlike ... let's say in the population of teachers in the US where even the hint of such an accusation could ruin a career/life forever.

I would even go so far as to say it is likely that men with these proclivities are attracted to the priesthood for various reasons (blind trust of parishoners, access to many children, etc.)

Brighid

sweep

I would like to add that it isn't just those with a legitimated power status that break the cast for ethical standards;

there is no 'nature of an individual' Obviously, the symbolism of the KKK expresses the nature of their cause when IN ROLE. separated from those roles we are all individuals, with amazing differences. Setting ethical codes for those in legitimated role, is important, and largely, we get to see compliance within those roles. But then again we have individuals that bring in their own 'private' agendas to work.

We can infer individual behaviour from a group based on their symbolism, as the rules usually imply.

get this: the story of carol who ended up enduring a seven year ordeal as a sex slave.

rules only go so far