Freethought & Rationalism Archive

phlebas · 02-08-2002, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus:
Right! He's steped out of the "theistic illusion" into the absolute incomprehensibility of atheism. He's "still the same person;" actually, he's no person at all now. Hasn't lost anything; no indeed, he's gained absolute despair and skepticism.

Any you wonder why I move your posts to RRP.

HelenM · 02-08-2002, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:


Helen, didn't you tell us you were a Calvinist? What use is forgiveness if you're predestined?

My apologies if I'm remembering wrong

I forgive you for remembering wrong

Seriously, I have said many times that I am a Calvinist. So you are not remembering wrong.

Lately I have decided that the safest thing to say is "I am a human being".

I do think that it's easier to make a case for Calvinism than Arminianism, using Bible verses.

But anyway, please say more about Calvinism precluding forgiveness? Is that simply a specific example of Calvinism precluding everything, all human responsibility because of predestination?

If that's what you think that's probably the error of 'hyper-Calvinism' rather than Calvinism.

Calvinism says you have to do it because God says so but then in hindsight you did it because he predestined you to...Calvinism in no way removes human responsibility; it simply posits the theological explanation that whatever you did, God did it...I know, many people here don't like that because you get no credit for doing good things, then. Well then, don't be a Calvinist, I suppose

.

love
Helen

phlebas · 02-08-2002, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
But anyway, please say more about Calvinism precluding forgiveness?

Well, I guess I was thinking of Calvinism as similar to strict predestination. That whatever you do in life was dictated by God long before you were born. Human acts are worthless, and you are saved only by God's irresistable grace -- you can't even choose to unsave yourself.

If that's the case, then there is no real need for forgiveness, because your eternal room reservation is already made.

Of course, the same can be said about any concept of god that includes omniscience, so maybe it's not that much different. John Calvin just seemed more eager to embrace the concept of predestination.

Gurdur · 02-08-2002, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
....But anyway, please say more about Calvinism precluding forgiveness? ...

Possibly an example in the case of Michael Servetus, which involved Calvin personally?

Quote:

"I am more deeply scandalized", wrote Gibbon "at the single execution of Servetus than at the hecatombs which have blazed in the autos-da-f� of Spain and Portugal". He ascribes the enmity of Calvin to personal malice and perhaps envy. The facts of the case are pretty well ascertained. Born in 1511, perhaps at Tudela, Michael Served y Reves studied at Toulouse and was present in Bologna at the coronation of Charles V. He travelled in Germany and brought out in 1531 at Hagenau his treatise "De Trinitatis Erroribus", a strong Unitarian work which made much commotion among the more orthodox Reformers. He met Calvin and disputed with him at Paris in 1534, became corrector of the press at Lyons; gave attention to medicine, discovered the lesser circulation of the blood, and entered into a fatal correspondence with the dictator of Geneva touching a new volume "Christianismi Restitutio," which he intended to publish. In 1546 the exchange of letters ceased. The Reformer called Servetus arrogant (he had dared to criticize the "Institutes" in marginal glosses), and uttered the significant menace, "If he comes here and I have any authority, I will never let him leave the place alive." The "Restitutio" appeared in 1553. Calvin at once had its author delated to the Dominican inquisitor Ory at Lyons, sending on to him the man's letters of 1545-46 and these glosses. Hereupon the Spaniard was imprisoned at Vienne, but he escaped by friendly connivance, and was burnt there only in effigy. Some extraordinary fascination drew him to Geneva, from which he intended to pass the Alps. He arrived on 13 August, 1553. The next day Calvin, who had remarked him at the sermon, got his critic arrested, the preacher's own secretary coming forward to accuse him. Calvin drew up forty articles of charge under three heads, concerning the nature of God, infant baptism, and the attack which Servetus had ventured on his own teaching. The council hesitated before taking a deadly decision, but the dictator, reinforced by Farel, drove them on. In prison the culprit suffered much and loudly complained. The Bernese and other Swiss voted for some indefinite penalty. But to Calvin his power in Geneva seemed lost while the stigma of heresy, as he insisted, would cling to all Protestants if this innovator were not put to death. "Let the world see" Bullinger counselled him, "that Geneva wills the glory of Christ."
Accordingly, sentence was pronounced 26 October, 1553, of burning at the stake. "Tomorrow he dies," wrote Calvin to Farel. When the deed was done, the Reformer alleged that he had been anxious to mitigate the punishment, but of this fact no record appears in the documents. He disputed with Servetus on the day of execution and saw the end.

HelenM · 02-08-2002, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:


Well, I guess I was thinking of Calvinism as similar to strict predestination. That whatever you do in life was dictated by God long before you were born. Human acts are worthless, and you are saved only by God's irresistable grace -- you can't even choose to unsave yourself.

If that's the case, then there is no real need for forgiveness, because your eternal room reservation is already made.

Of course, the same can be said about any concept of god that includes omniscience, so maybe it's not that much different. John Calvin just seemed more eager to embrace the concept of predestination.

If you think of Calvinism that way, it does seem that it makes everything about humanity meaningless...

As I already said I don't think that's really how Calvinists view life.

love
Helen

HelenM · 02-08-2002, 05:43 AM

Gurdur

Yes, I'm aware of what religious extremists have done

Thanks for sharing that, anyway.

love
Helen

Oolon Colluphid · 02-08-2002, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theophilus:

Right! He's steped out of the "theistic illusion" into the absolute incomprehensibility of atheism.

Your own inability to comprehend is irrelevant. Bwchio, coc oen. Atheism, like that phrase, is perfectly comprehensible, even if you are too ignorant to know it.

Quote:

He's "still the same person;" actually, he's no person at all now. Hasn't lost anything; no indeed, he's gained absolute despair and skepticism.

I think you’ll find there’s plenty of folks here who are both atheist and not known for their absolute despair. As for absolute scepticism, what are you afraid of? Can’t your dreams hold up to sceptical inquiry? And as for “he's no person at all now”... huh. You really are a nasty piece of work. Four lines halfway through Guns ‘n’ Roses’s <a href="http://www.mygnr.com/lyrics/2-2.html" target="_blank">It’s So Easy</a> spring to mind...

Quote:

Curious; very curious.
"knowing this is all there is," means knowing nothing.

Huh? Which dictionary are you using? Mind sharing it, so we can decipher what to normal English speakers looks like drivel?

Quote:

Talk about pretense.

No thanks. I don’t much want to talk about pretence either. In fact, I can’t be bothered to talk to you at all.

Hang in there RW.

Oolon

phlebas · 02-08-2002, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HelenSL:
As I already said I don't think that's really how Calvinists view life.

Probably depends on the individual Calvinist

So what distinguishes Calvinism from Christianity's other sects?

GunnerJ · 02-08-2002, 06:22 AM

Quote:

I am a Christian and when I remind Rainbow Walking that by some miracle he spoke to me on my mobile phone almost at the very instant his wife and son set foot on Australian soil at Sydney International Airport I believe he will know who I am.

This is a miracle how? It's a coincidence! What, it was "so improbable" that it would happen, adn therefore a miracle? How improbable does somehting have to be to warrent supernatural explaination? 1 in 16? 1 in 100? 1 in a million?

Quote:

On either side of the Cross we read that one thief believed and asked to be with Christ in paradise and another thief hurled insults.

Well, only in Luke. Mark has them both insult Jesus. Compare Mark 15:32 to Luke 23:39-42.

HelenM · 02-08-2002, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:


Probably depends on the individual Calvinist

So what distinguishes Calvinism from Christianity's other sects?

I don't really want to get into a lot of detail, but others emphasize freewill and say that anyone can be 'saved' who chooses to be, not just those 'predestined to salvation'. Some also believe people can lose their salvation through sinning or through deliberate rejection of the faith.

I'm sure there are lots of Internet sites which detail this

love
Helen

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02-08-2002, 05:43 AM	#96
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Gurdur Yes, I'm aware of what religious extremists have done Thanks for sharing that, anyway. love Helen

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