seebs

What exactly constitutes "good reason to be suspicious"? It didn't sound like reason to be suspicious to me, but maybe my standards are different.

As an extreme example, my wife sometimes stays out very late at the house of an ex-boyfriend and comes home smelling of his perfume. This would bug me a lot more if I didn't know his boyfriend. Context matters.

pescifish

I think context must matter in these cases.

Some of us have been following Intensity's relationship with his gfriend (his side of the story, of course) from the trip to the park prior to her first leaving, her call the night before she left asking for her bible back, her 3 months away, her decision to take on another long distance position, her excuse that she needs a ring to be convinced of a commitment, the several days of delay before she agreed to get together after a long absence... Some context has been provided over the past few months.

Intensity, personally, I think you do have grounds for concern, whether it's about cheating or her apparent change in attitude about your relationship. From all that you told us, her behavior has made a real trend toward more and more distance from your relationship. I hope you can continue your conversations with her and get this worked out.

seebs

I retract my objections.

LLaurieG

(Laurie) I sure don't retract my objections! This guy is an unmistakable controller. Check out his rules, the phrasing! "I told her she can have dates with her male friends BUT I REQUIRE advance notification of each 'date'." Intensity, I don't know what culture you were raised in, but who made you the Grand Poobah over what women you care for are permitted to do and how?

Back off, Jack! What a one-sided screed this is! Doesn't anyone here wonder how he strikes this woman he claims to love? "Needs to regulate in order to salvage his macho ego" sounds way more like it to me!

Pseudonymph

Horseshit...

You can make no claim as to say he does not love her. You are also in no place to put words in his mouth.

I am almost offended by such an unmitigated and stupid sentance. I have gotten to know intensity a bit though our interactions and this does not describe him at all. You would be wise to retract a statement quite blatantly pulled from your nether regions.

Who made you the "poobah" over what other people's feelings are?

To a woman like me...intensity's demands are not at all unreasonable...especially if I had a track record for spending time with older, married "good men", going to dinner and to each others houses all hours of the night etc.

Trust is obviously essential in a relationship, but you also cannot allow yourself to be walked all over.

You, laurie, will be hard pressed to find a guy that would be willing to put up with such behaviour his whole life. That is part of the reason the divorce rate is so high...people can live with things for a little while, but they will wear eventually...you have to think long term. Marriage is supposed to be for life.

I hate a controlling man just as much as the next woman...but your definition of controlling is highly distorted, at least according to my view, and the view of every other woman I've ever talked to about these things.

[ December 24, 2002: Message edited by: Pseudonymph ]</p>

Eudaimonist

Oh, please! Women often tell their boyfriends/husbands to phone them if they'll be late coming home so they won't worry about them. It's not that different. I don't see how this is an unreasonable relationship requirement.

liquid

Hell, she should be doing it [i.e. phoning] out of common courtesy in any case! The more I learn about this woman, the more I feel that regardless of any controlling predisposition on the part of intensity, she's looking to walk all over him, have her cake and eat it.

Sorry for the harsh words - it probably seems more extreme than it is because the unusual stuff is all that I see reported. But I must admit I am unconvinced by this woman's behaviour.

HelenM

My main concern is that Intensity and his girlfriend can be honest with each other so they can make a good decision about the future of their relationship.

His girlfriend's behavior of late has changed significantly in ways he's found very painful. She's said she loves him deeply and she won't behave that way again. But how can he be sure she won't, since she did once? How can he be sure she's 'over' whatever caused her to do things that evidently she used to agree were unacceptable while she is his girlfriend.

Basically I don't want to see him in a marriage that causes him a lot of pain. If they get married, he certainly won't expect less time and commitment and loyalty from her and if she's already struggling to meet his expectations there is nothing 'magic' about marriage that will make it easier for her than it is now. Or so it seems to me.

Helen

brighid

I think both Intensity and his GF are to blame in the quandry they find themselves in. Her behavior has changed over time, but even before this �good man� episode I have personally felt very put off by his description of his behavior towards her.

I do not understand why men and women have such a problem with opposite sex friends. My husband has quite a few female friends, more then a few that are very beautiful. I have had to contend with the manipulative ex myself and although she drove me nuts because I could clearly see through her manipulation I was never jealous of her. I am very open with my friends. We even talk about sex. My closest male friend has called on a number of occasions wanting advice on how to please his wife. My husband just laughs and comments that he is coming to the right place for advise

At least once a month I spend time out with the �girls� and often don�t come home until around 2 am or later. I would say I also get hit on by men (and even a few women) on at least a semi-regular basis. I tell my husband about those incidents and he smiles and comments that he feels complimented when another man (or woman) finds his wife attractive enough to comment and make me smile. He has shown the occasional moment of protectiveness when he senses some guy probably doesn�t have the best of intentions but he also knows I am fully capable of handling it myself and enjoys watching the idiot crash and burn as I verbally flame him. He has to work late often and even travels on business, but I don�t really worry even when he travels with female sales staff. I trust him and he full well knows that if he breaks that trust his loss will be significant. Plus he is a bit fearful I might literally kick his ass

I have always found that people who react with extreme jealousy, or unreasonable amounts of jealousy (and this applies to all other emotions) do so because of how they would be in that given situation. Reactions speak much more to what is going on inside a person, then what is going on outside to affect them � at least in my honest and humble opinion. Was it not too long ago that you were in a position with a woman, not your GF whom you were friends with that was beginning to develop into a potential affair?

Intensity I do understand why you became suspicious and even the need to find out more. I can�t say that I wouldn�t feel differently as I whole heartedly agree that significant and even subtle behavior changes often times signal some sort of problem. But at the same time I understand this I get a sense that there is more to this then meets the eye. There are two sides of this equation. We have your side and hers is distinctly absent, so I am reluctant to pass any harsh judgment. I don�t think a woman suddenly changes from a chaste angel to a cheating whore overnight. There is a serious problem in your relationship and this is what her behavior and your reaction to the behavior signals.

I think she is handling her feelings and desires poorly, but I can also understand why she might be reluctant to abruptly end things with you. She might very well be afraid of your reaction, given the intensity of your other reactions. She obviously has found the company and attention of this other man attractive enough that she doesn�t want to spend as much time with you. Unfortunately I have found that many men and women aren�t very good at honest confrontation, or even examination of their own feelings and motives. This certainly doesn�t excuse the behavior but I know it helps me navigate my emotions, reactions and a viable solution if I do my best to understand what may or may not be going on within their mind. This technique has always made coping and healing a lot easier. Although many people (including myself) make some pretty bad choices, especially given the hindsight of retrospective examination I generally find that most people don�t have malicious or sinister motives. They are just human, afraid and often times selfish and foolish.

Part of my pleading here is because I have, at least as of late being accused by multiple in my life of having motivations and taking actions (as they perceive them) that are totally out of character and certainly nothing I have ever demonstrated either doing or being capable of. It just absolutely blows my mind that people who know me so well, suddenly do not know me at all. Perhaps this is coloring my own perception of your situation.

I cannot disagree with others that through out your many descriptions, here and in other threads, that your actions are controlling. Once and I emphasize ONCE � my husband TOLD me I WILL do something and he nearly found his head his removed from his shoulders. It is now a joke between us and he will comment something like �Now I am not saying you WILL do this ��

Your GF is a grown woman, with an education and capabilities and a mind entirely separate from you. Your manner of speech, at least as you have detailed it here seems to me to be that of a demanding father figure and not that of an equal partner. You demand that she do certain things, rather than brings your concerns to here and mutually work out an agreement. I think she is distancing herself from you because she realizes that here �obligations� to you as a wife are only going to be more restrictive and more demands will be placed on her that she doesn�t appear entirely ready to embrace. I agree with Helen that proceeding with the engagement, despite the MANY warning signs going off right now is a very bad idea.

I have a friend who engaged in a 4 year relationship with a man whom she eventually married, despite the many warning signs that she should not make this commitment to him. He was a nice guy. He did many wonderful things for her and she felt �obligated� because of the time and friendship they shared. Now mind you I almost entirely fault her because she was not honest with him because she was afraid and she was pressured by him (and later his family) to go through with this despite her uneasiness with the future of the relationship. I do not place the entire blame on her because he was well aware of the warning signs and even her honest misgivings about the relationship. He thought marrying her would �cure� her of those things. They went ahead with the marriage and it was a disaster. They were divorced a year later. Your GF�s actions are very reminiscent of this scenario and others I have encountered along the way. Again, this does not excuse the dishonest behavior but it might serve to explain it. Your GF may very well love you, but that doesn�t mean she is secure in the idea of a continued commitment with you.

Above all I think she needs to be honest with you, but I also think she finds it very difficult to do so because of your intense reactions positively and negatively. I think the time and distance she has put between the two of you has given her some perspective and the attention from this man has made her understand that she has many choices in life. It doesn�t seem she is all that willing to give up her independence. If you were indeed the right choice for her (and vice versa) there would be no obstacle insurmountable, and there would be no excuses for seeing you, spending time with you or otherwise.

I know that American women do something called �sending signals.� We are taught to do so because we are taught to be indirect because direct and/or aggressive behavior is not ladylike. I am not sure the African woman is much different given the similar cultural restraints placed on female behavior, sexuality, etc. She is sending you some pretty clear signals, even though she also appears to be confused and thereby sending some conflicting messages. She may be unable to handle the emotional outburst likely with her breaking up with you, or she may simply be baffled that you haven�t got the �hint� yet. As a woman I find this sort of indirect and manipulative behavior in other women completely abhorrent, but I also understand why they do it. My directness and aggressiveness has often times gotten me labeled as being some uber-feminist bitch and accusations of being a lesbian. Now I am a feminist, and being called a bitch is not entirely off the mark, but it is always done in an attempt to disparage my character and malign my femininity. Men usually find those qualities very sexy and simultaneously very disturbing because their inability to handle a strong woman. Well � I don�t have to worry about that anymore!

I think you really need to sit down and reflect upon your actions, what you are projecting and WHY she finds herself in a position to a) find the attention of any other man more pleasant then the attention of her SO b) WHY she has been distancing herself from you over the many months c) and WHY she is unhappy in this relationship as that is what really underlies all of her actions. IF you really want to marry this woman these things MUST be resolved before ever placing a ring on her finger. Otherwise these things will fester and destroy the relationship in the end. They will also repeat in your next relationship.

All I have said is simply out of concern for you and your relationship. I hope you have not been offended, but I also don�t think you are the type that appreciates sugar coating either. It seems you appreciate the direct approach much more. All that being said, I deeply empathize with your dilemma and the pain, frustration, love and confusion you must be feeling right now. You have invested a lot of time, energy and effort into this 6 year relationship and it is only natural to be strongly, emotionally invested and therefore react just as strongly. I think you have been stressing and obsessing so much about this (with some legitimate reasons) that this engagement seems to be something more of a conquest than a proposal for life long and mutual love, support, and admiration. Your happiness and needs seemed to be dependant upon her and that is an awful burden to bear as an SO. If I could suggest anything I would suggest caution and some time apart � not thinking about the relationship. I don�t know if you have ever experienced this but when you are looking so hard for something (and it�s right in front of you the whole time) but you just can�t find it � then when you walk away and come back later it almost �magically� appears. Perhaps you have some vacation time and you can retreat alone to a quiet escape, near the ocean or something like that. Some place where you can simply be.

Best of wishes!

Brighid

Ted Hoffman

Thank you all, and especialli brighid's detailed response.
In one part, she said:
This is true. I was drawing from my personal experience. I never knew I could actually be attracted to another woman till I allowed one to come too close. I was able to break it off. But will she?
She cant live my experience and she has to learn her lessons and go through life and grow wise from her own experiences.
I have come to accept that. I have also talked a lot to her and I dont think jealousy is an emotion unique to me (so those eager to demonise me, just fucking relax).
I want to learn to master my self and my emotions and be less controlling. I know that "letting go" is the only way. It could be needed sooner or later - for me, its sooner.

About spending time with members of the opposite sex, I think two factors have influenced the viewpoints I have seen here:
age and personal experience. The older, married, and more experienced women and men here feel its fine. Sirenspeak and a few others do not. I think perhaps there is a stage in life when one is strong enough to "let go", have a fairly strong grasp one ones emotions and thoughts as far as loyalty is concerned.
I am confident that I will be there quite soon. But I guess I have no right to evaluate my GF using myself as a yardstick.
I have to take the leap of faith.
I still do not approve of it. But I also realize she might not have to agree with me. I now realize she actually doesnt (after some very subtle conversations) and I also realize to be forceful or controlling is not the solution. She has her mind and needs to get her own experience about the human condition.
It is up to her to decide whether my disapproval constitutes "just cause" to desist from such relationships or proceed with them. In the end, its about respecting other peoples decisions and viewpoints, especially if one is in a relationship with another.

It will blow over. I will not dwell too much on it.
Thank you all for the honest, impassioned and insightful advice.