ex-preacher

pot, kettle, black

<strong> Ha! I am amazed at the idiocy, self-centeredness, rudeness, and sheer ignorance of the Christians who post here. Nothing personal, old chap.

<strong> Yes. Actually, I'd put it at close to 2 billion. Can you really believe that about 1 billion Muslims are stupid or ignorant?

<strong> It is possible if they review only part of the evidence. If someone honestly reviews all of the evidence and has at least an average IQ, I do not think it is possible to be anything except an atheist or agnostic.

<strong> History happens to be my new chosen field. In this statement, as in so many of your statements, you are completely wrong. Check the statistics and you'll see that recent history (since the Enlightenment) has favored atheists. Even if it this were not true, it doesn't really prove anything. Surely you aware of the problems with the argument from popularity.

free12thinker

If you took a vote and asked the citizens of the world if they liked to work, an overwhelming majority would say no. They don't like work because work is tiring and hard.

Following religion is not tiring or hard, and in fact, like you said, history is on the side of those who follow religion. If you follow religion, you will be with the general populace. You will not have to worry about death, fire, anger from the masses, or any of this stuff. It's just easier. People would rather be safe than sorry. It's a continued domnio effect. Promote religion as the right, and people will follow, because no one wants to be wrong. It's that easy.

Let's go through this one more time.
Work is hard - People don't like it.
Religion is easy - People like it.

Don't think everyone who claims to believe in God or Christianity, really believes in it, or follows it. It's jut simpler to follow the crowd.

Atticus_Finch

Here is one place we are truly different. I do not believe all Muslims are stupid or ignorant. I do believe they are wrong. There is a difference. Intelligent and enlightened people can and often are wrong. I believe you are wrong, ex preacher, but I have no reason to believe you are stupid or ignorant. It is close-minded to believe that anyone who does not share your beliefs is stupid or ignorant. So closemindedness is all I can accuse you of at present.

I challenge the assertion that "religion" is easy. Maybe "religion" IS easy but being a Christian is not. Please do not associate all those who profess to be Christians (without any evidence of that fact to be seen in their lives) with actual Christians who struggle to live a life pleasing to God as best they know how. Focusing on professing Christians, which I would suggests includes most people in the USA who say they are Christians, is merely to set up a straw man that is easy to knock down. Why don't you criticize someone like Mother Theresa instead. (As an aside, I don't suggest that her good works mean she was necessarily a Christian but she would be a more challenging target for you than the run of the mill professing Christian who seldom goes to church and doesn't know what or why they believe).

Do you think it is easy to try to live for someone else rather than your own wants and desires? Do you think it is easy to try to follow a moral code which sometimes runs counter to your own selfish, immediate desires? The true Christian life is one of sacrifice out of love for God not fire insurance.

It is wrong to suggest that I have not considered the evidence sufficiently when you do not know me. The history I refer to is that of great athiests or agnostics, like C.S. Lewis, who studied the evidence and became Christians. You may not like Lewis and may be embarrassed by the conclusion he reached but I do not believe that you can honestly consider him to have been ignorant or stupid.

Regards,

Finch

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Atticus_Finch ]</p>

The Other Michael

Hi Finch,

This is completely anecdotal, but my impression is that, based on a standard bell curve, most religious people are not stupid.

But then I also have the impression that a VERY limited number of them have actually investigated their beliefs and given them any thought, so they could well be ignorant. But ignorance, unlike stupidity, is correctable.

And it also appears that a number of those adherents who DO investigate their religon DO decide that it is not worthy of their belief.

I would be interested to see accurate statistics on the relative numbers of atheist-&gt;believer vs believer-&gt;atheist de/conversions.

cheers,
Michael

ex-preacher

Let me remind you - I used the phrase "stupid or ignorant" because you first used it in concluding that atheists must think Christians are stupid or ignorant. I do not believe most Muslims or Christians are stupid. I do believe most are ignorant - by which I mean "lacking information" or "unaware of certain pieces of information."

<strong> I agree. I never said that Christians were stupid. I feel about them (you) the same you feel about Muslims. Well-intentioned and smart, but lacking crucial information.

<strong> I was using your own words to show that just as Muslims are not stupid, neither must atheists think Christians are stupid. Both groups are ignorant of the full range of evidence and logic. I believe I have sufficient grounds to accuse you of not reading and/or reasoning very well.

<strong> So was she or wasn't she? Do you not know or are you afraid to admit that you think she is probably roasting in hell? How are we supposed to tell the "True Christians" if you can't?

<strong> I would say the same if you asserted that the sun rotates around the earth or that Genesis 1 is literal. You might also say the same about the average Muslim who rejects Jesus.

Please tell me, exactly what evidence have you considered. I can list hundreds of pro-Christian books I have read. Have you read hundreds of pro-atheist books? What are the ten most powerful books attacking Christianity that you have read?

<strong> It's atheists. Learn how to spell it please.

<strong> I'm sorry, but CS Lewis was not a "great atheist." Please find one person in history who wrote books on atheism and debated publicly defending atheism and was paid to promote atheism who then turned around and converted to Christianity. I can find many examples of Christians who wrote for, spoke for, defended Christianity who became atheists (including yours truly).

<strong> I like Lewis and am not embarrassed by his conclusions. He was not ignorant in the common sense of "stupid" but I find no evidence in his life that he was fully conversant with all of the arguments against Christianity. In his story of conversion, he states outright that he never even considered any religion except Christianity or Buddhism and he thought Christianity was simpler (or something to that effect). It is also interesting that he rejected many doctrines which are firmly embraced by his mostly evangelical readers (such as inerrancy and a literal hell). I regard him as a brilliant popularizer of standard Christian apologetics. He never claimed to be a great philosopher and stated emphatically that he was not a theologian. He was, sadly, wrong in his core beliefs. Think of the great good he could have accomplished in the service of truth.

Bree

I could not have said it better, Chris.

Amos

That is what incarnate means. There may be a correlation found in genes but it will never be a contributing factor to behavior because if that was true a woman would never be able to change her mind and if she did that would be like calling your own genes a lie.

By all means, I understand that the environment is just a small factor and most is internal orientation. I just object to the word genetic.

[ May 14, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Amos

Doing push-ups and stuff like that. You know, pumping iron and just stimulating masculine qualities in general.

MadMordigan

Like changing the oil, farting and watching football?

Veil of Fire

Push-ups produce testosterone?

Someone call the medical community! There's a Nobel Prize here, I can smell it!