HelenM

Even if that's the outcome, I hope he can have an honest talk with her first in which they agree that they aren't able to meet each others needs/expectations and so the decision to part will be mutual.

Or maybe an honest talk will go another direction. Who knows. I just hope they are able to have one...

Helen

simian

As a person who sometimes writes out responses to various items (items in the paper, job related, all sorts of crap), I find that last sentence rather offensive. There are several reasons I may write - two that come to mind immediately are that in writing I can place myself in a 3rd person mindset (the offenses are not a personal) and that allows me to reach #2 - to be able to think things through rather than dwelling on the "wrongs."

The only gutless way of facing a problem I ever see is to simply ignore it. Intensity may not be dealing with the issue as you but he is dealing with it.

Simian

Bree

I sometimes find that I can clear my head by writing down my feelings. This technique is also very helpful if I'm thinking about confronting someone - if I don't sit down and really think it over (even write what I might say) I usually end up sticking my foot in my mouth. 99.9% of these "letters" never get to the intended recipients - they're just for my eyes only.

Women may want all these things but most are realistic about it - if someone is actively seeking a mate with ALL these 'desireables' I'd tell her to stop reading so many romance novels. It's uncommon to find ALL of them in one person at one given time. Most come with age (except the sexy figure, that usually goes first).

Ted Hoffman

Helen,
Not only have other women found me attractive, I have equally found other women attractive. I knew I had to cut off contact. And I did. And I always shared with her some of the goings on of my "relationships" with such women.

It should be obvious that it cant be fun to be around a man who has just realized you are dating another man behind his back. I have no apologies for that.
If she wants fun, she can go to a fun park. I am not a fun machine.

At least not now.

It's not a difference. It is wrong. Plain and simple. And it has a very simple litmus test. I can simply start being friendly with the plenty of sexy women I know have always wanted me. Ask them to call me and we have dates.

I know what her expectations are. When we started going out, she asked me if I could simply shake the hands of other girls and not hug them as a greeting gesture if that can tell you anything - and these are things we have talked about.
Perhaps she has simply changed.
I do tell her, ad infinitum, how great she is and how much she means to me. And I have never bothered her about her freedom and affirmation until this guy showed up. Frankly, this kind of "freedom" only becomes an issue if someone needs to do something they know their partner would disapprove of.
And if I dont give her freedom and affirmation, the way to get it is not by getting it from someone else. A married man.

Thanks Helen.

Siren Speak
Thanks a lot. What you told me, sadly, seems to be coming true, I am sorry to admit.
True, true. I have to find this out.
Sadly, I told her exactly this last week. And I noticed she went very quiet. I told her those kind of relationships almost always end up as affairs. Now I know why she went quiet.
Yeah, thats the right question. I was "accusing" the wrong "person".

Thanks for all the other advice. I have a lot to think about and weigh and consider.

Simian and Bree,
Thanks for that support about my approach. Richard, people always talk. Even after reading the letter, we will talk. In the letter, I can state things that would otherwise seem trivial in a verbal conversation because there is the pressure of the other person listening and waiting to extract ones main point from all that they are saying.
I can relate the experience I had in detail in a letter, than in a verbal exchange. Verbal exchanges also have the characteristic of spinning off in various directions due to interruptions, waiting for feedback, regulating message based on body language etc.
Its okay for you to find verbal exchange to be the only "manly" way of tackling issues. Its just a means of communication. Content and results and what matter in the end. Not how close the eyeballs are.

She has not responded to my messages today - wonder whether to call her or let her think?
I told her that I hope that whatever it she is doing (in her silence), I hope she is thinking a lot about all this because only she can help me understand.

HelenM

Maybe she's been deceiving herself about her feelings, Intensity.

I'm very sorry if she's not held herself to what she's always expected of you and what she's known you expect of her

I don't know whether to suggest you call her again. If she's avoiding your phone calls and has a way of knowing it's you then she probably won't pick up anyway.

take care
Helen

Mad Lion

This type of situation makes my blood boil. She's cheating on you, in mind if not in body. Dump her.

Rain Dog

I didn�t read the whole thread. I�m sure there�s some good advice there, but the whole thing is a far too familiar pain. I wish I could be more supportive, but the reality is that I�ve drawn a stark conclusion over the course of my own life: all women cheat. They hold all the cards and they know it. So if being with a women is important to you, then, as a thinking person, you simply have to deal with the fact that you�ll be sharing her, at least occasionally. The choice is between a non-exclusive relationship and none at all. As someone who�s ended up opting for the latter, I can�t recommend it.

-RD

Pseudonymph

Hmm...It sounds like you have an interesting story to tell. What have you been through to make you say such a thing? I'm very interested in your response, because I know some other people that think exactly the same way.

Pseudonymph AKA SirenSpeak

[ December 19, 2002: Message edited by: Pseudonymph ]</p>

brighid

Well, no one can really tell you if she is indeed cheating, emotionally or sexually. I think Helen may quite possibly have the best possible interpretation thus far. No of us knows what goes on between the two of you outside of what you post here, so therefore we can only go on that. I will speak as a woman, not necessarily as myself, and how I would react to the actions you have taken as described in your posts.

It appears that she has been waiting a while for your proposal. If she is 26 and your relationship has spanned 6 years, she was 20 when you met, correct? She has grown, evolved and matured over the course of your relationship. She has pursued her education and secured herself an independent living. In that course of time she has had the opportunity to meet many different people, discover herself and forge new relationships with men and women. The intensity of your reactions, the almost obsessive way you keep track of her, etc. are very off putting to most women. Those sorts of actions would personally make me run for the hills. You say you trust her, but at the same time you ask leading questions and don�t appear to really �trust� her. She may be asking herself if she really wants to be married to a man who doesn�t trust her and makes the kinds of demands you are.

She may also be receiving positive attention from this older, married man in a way you have not provided. I am not justifying her actions, her indecisiveness or what not but I do think it is important to understand why she might find herself possibly enamored by this man, or distant from you and unwilling to go the extra mile in the relationship. If in the course of the 6 years of your relationship she has not cheated and she has been an �angel� I doubt her character would change so suddenly because an older, rich, married man is paying attention to her.

I think she has most likely grown weary of the relationship. She may very well be a different woman now that she has grown and matured. She may realize that she wants more from a committed relationship and has not realized exactly what is motivating her. She may be unable to relinquish her independence in order to be the kind of woman you want her to be in this relationship. She may not want to be controlled or told she must be this way or that way in order to be an acceptable wife and has found that not all men desire a woman to be just so.

I do not think she has cheated on you in the carnal sense, but I do think she is having some of her emotional needs met by this man and isn�t sure about the future of your relationship together. She may not want to break up with you, or be the �bad one� and simply aggravating you to the point you will break up with her. I agree that this man should be paying that kind of attention to his wife, and not some pretty young thing he met out in the field. I do think those sorts of initially innocent friendships have the potential of evolving into serious problems and affairs.

Why can�t a woman enjoy conversation with another man, married or otherwise? There are many people I could sit up with until all hours of the night just talking with � about politics, religion, life, work, art, history, etc. etc. I can understand where you would feel the possibility for infidelity would be there, but as a woman who has never cheated on any man I have been with � if I was questioned in such a manner I would be offended. I would expect that my mate knew better. If I had never before cheated why on Earth would I now? Any woman with an ounce of self-respect is capable of having �friendships� with people (even men who have an interest in her) with out it ever crossing the line. Perhaps this man�s motives aren�t so innocent. Perhaps this is the wake up call you needed. This woman isn�t the one for you. She is too independent.

I think you need to be honest with her, without becoming defensive or accusatory. I think she isn�t coming to pick up your 8 page letter because she just isn�t interested in confronting your accusations. I think she needs to be honest with you, and herself.

Brighid

Gallimore

Intensity, I can relate to your feelings, only too distinctly! I used to be in a state of anxiety with my ex-girlfriend: the not being able to eat, the constant churning in the stomach, her awful stepping in, stepping out, the masochism and its straight road to disaster. According to my experience, there is no rational solution. But I�m of the opinion that you should leave her. And if anything can alleviate the pain, time will.

The nagging question is this: why? There might be two answers. The first is from the existentialist viewpoint, that is - the individual responsibility (or individual choice.) The French philosopher Sartre once observed a married woman who had been having an affair with her lover from another town. Eventually, she asked her husband to move into this town so she could be closer to her lover. Inevitably the husband and the lover clashed into each other and things, as may well be imagined, took a devastating turn. Sartre asserted that the wife did this because she wanted to avoid RESPONSIBILITY, to have her lover, at any rate, husband to make a CHOICE for her. Judging from your observation of your girlfriend, I detect something along this line; that she is in an emotional fear, she wants you (or the other guy) to make a choice for her.

Second, a biological viewpoint. Women generally tend to thrive for the best man, which relates to the Mr. Right concept. Countless male animals fight against each other, and the victor gets the mate. The instinct in the female animal is to find the best mate, a connection analogous to the notion of the survival of the fittest. So what would your girlfriend say? She would say, �Between my boyfriend and this �good man� with decent income I must make a choice.� If she has courage, she would choose him. If she doesn�t, you (or the other guy) have to.

My experience: the longer you wait, the deeper your lethargy.