Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lestat de Lioncourt · 05-05-2003, 06:33 PM

I just got my Amazon.com order in today, LOSING THE RACE Slef-Sabotage in Black America by John McWhorter.

Quote:

Berkley linguistics professor John McWhorter, born at the dawn of the post-Civil Rights era, spent years trying to make sense of this question. Now he dares to say the unsayable: racism's ugliest legacy is the disease of defeatism that has infected black America. Losing the Race explores the three main components of this cultural virus: the culsts of victimology, separatism, and anti-intellectualism that are making blacks their own worst enemies in the struggle for success.

I must say admit that I'm intrigued, especially given the fact that it's written by an African-American.

Has anyone read this book yet? If so, any thoughts or opinions you'd like to share as I open the pages of this book for a read?

Lestat

crownboy · 05-05-2003, 08:05 PM

Yeah, I've read the book, and overall I think it's pretty good.

As an African American myself, I certainly believe it's quite obvious that in many ways African Americans defeat themselves by having an overly negative "the white man is keeping me down" attitude on too many issues. Indeed, I have personally seen people in my own family who have failed to reach their full academic potential because they bought into the "learning is white" attitude, even after having early success in school. For me, I was somewhat insulated since I went to a minority black high school, but in my majority black junior high school, I did get some minor verbal flack for not "talking black", though not really for my academic stuff (I kept that stuff private, anyway).

Another good feature of the book is that he does not employ an overly vitrolic style that I find in some books by black conservatives (e.g.: Larry Elder). He actually gives the "civil rights establishment" credit where it is due (something other black conservatives unrealistically never do), but he does lay it into Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

Being a pretty liberal person overall, many tend to be suprised that I'm somewhat "conservative" on these race issues, but if they make sense and speak truth, no sense in ignoring them. (I don't agree with every last word in the book, but most of it, nontheless).

crownboy · 05-06-2003, 12:03 PM

Actually, I sort of gave you an overview of Mc Whorter's latest book, Authentically Black , but I did read Loosing the Race, and it was a great book as well, though its contents are not fresh in my mind.

thefugitivesaint · 05-06-2003, 02:26 PM

If you liked the previous books try out Blackness Visible: Essays on Philosophy and Race by Charles M. Mills. It's a nice approach to issues of race and how those issues relate to philosophy. His The Racial Contract is worth attention as well.
-theSaint

beyelzu · 05-06-2003, 02:36 PM

I read Losing the Race by mcwhorter.

I really enjoyed the book, I was interested by the book because Mcwhorter isnt Shelby Steele or Sowell. He seems to be a pretty liberal guy who happens to have an extremely unpopular veiw on affirmative action. all in all it is a really good book.

Lestat de Lioncourt · 05-06-2003, 03:30 PM

Thanks to everyone and their responses.

Next question, have you read Dinesh D'Souza's book 'The End of Racism'? I have and I found it to be a very intelligent and well researched work on the issues of race in America. Especially on the struggles of blacks, which I believed he called 'black cultural pathology.' Which appears to be the same thing as what Mr. McWhorter is talking about when he mentions the 'cultural virus.'

If these elements hold true and are affecting the black community as they reportedly (and evidently) are, why brush it under the rug? Why not admit these mistakes, learn from them and strive to better the situation(s)? If it's there, if it's real and if it's a problem (as it obviously is otherwise people wouldn't be writing about it) why not fix it? Why are people who do write about it labeled either a racist or an 'Uncle Tom?' This is the part (denial) that confuses me in all this stuff over 'race issues.'

Lestat

Lestat de Lioncourt · 05-06-2003, 05:31 PM

As of today's date, 158 views and only 4 responses....

Lestat

Farren · 05-06-2003, 06:04 PM

This thread makes interesting reading because it seems to me there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in discussions of race in predominantly European countries.

I should preface my opinions by saying I think "race" is an invalid biological concept. Or at least falls into the same category as freckled vs non-freckled people, or red-heads vs brunettes. That said, I think its hard to address the perception of difference and the social gaps it produces is without using the language of the fallacy itself.

Because of the vast gap Apartheid created there's much less common ground between white and black South Africans than between black and white americans. But, while a massive number of social inequaliities exist, the long dialog that led to a non-racial democracy has created a culture of confronting racially sensitive topics head on.

People comfortably talk about "black culture" and "white culture" and "your people" and "my people" without any offense being implied or taken. I've noticed among the many American, European and Canadian peace corps types that came over here in the wake of apartheid that there's an altogether more subtle, sideways shuffle round topics like this which make it hard to get to the meat of the issue.

I suspect the reasons behind this are decades of right-wingers hiding thier true intentions behind crypto-racist arguments (like "The Bell Curve"), resulting in language itself being a more sensitive area.

I was at a meeting at a mostly black government department the other day (different departments still for some reason seem to be dominated by one race or the other), where I was being brought in as an IT consultant after an application development project had fucked up.

One of the first things they said to me was

"well, these obviously old-school white guys from the IT directorate (another local govt department) came in, sat down with us for about 30 minutes, didn't listen to a word we said, thought "these kaffirs (the local equivalent of 'niggers') don't know what the fuck is good for them, so we'll decide, and came back 6 months later with an application we couldn't use".

To put this in perspective, I'm white, but the woman who heads the directorate sized me up, obviously decided "he's one of us" and said what had to be said to put the situation in context. By "us" I mean the black and white South Africans who acknowledge the divide and build bridges every day by speaking openly and frankly.

By comparison, the dialogue I've had with black and white Americans and Canadians feel like you're walking carefully over glass in a dark room whenever racial issues come up.

The one exeption to this was an extraordinary black American political scientist I met from Berkeley Campus, California, who was as straightforward a person as I've ever met. I suspect, though, that was to do with the fact that he had a taoist belief system, which demands that you confront the world as it is, without illusions.

emphryio · 05-06-2003, 08:28 PM

Quote:

As of today's date, 158 views and only 4 responses....

I started to reply yesterday then said to hell with it.

Because I haven't really been spending much time in quite a while thinking about this topic. And.... I don't think I've read a single book on the subject.

Anyway here I am. I have a dumb question. This McWhorter apparently is suggesting blacks generally need a new attitude? A new philosophy?

How's he going to make it happen? (Other than getting them all to read his book.)

Maybe some extremely charismatic speaker will come along and get this new movement started someday. But in the meantime..... I dont' see it happening. I see things staying basically the same if the only solutions are such as this.

In comparison, democracy working through the government is capable of doing "Big" things to make changes. They can spend 3 times as much money on education for instance. They can reform the education system. They can work to reduce the level of income inequality which has been growing for some strange reason for the last 20 years. (sarcasm) Then there's drugs. The ridiculous number of blacks in prison compared to whites. (Did you know there's more blacks in prison in Indiana then in college?) Disproportionate prison terms between blacks and whites etc.

So anyway, I do think the government needs to do something. What McWhorter says is nice and all. But how about doing that and the sort of things I suggest also? Problem is, conservatives jump to the McWhorter solution as the only solution.

Anyway I haven't spent much time thinking on this. (There's something far worse going on right now.) That's why I deleted my post yesterday.

Zar · 05-06-2003, 10:25 PM

For criticizing people who are black, let alone black culture as a whole, I declare you all anti-African! And the author of the book and the African-Americans who liked it are self-hating African-Americans.

Okay, I'm totally not serious. I'm kidding. This was a joke. In fact, as an African American, I personally am of the opinion that black folks shoot themselves in the foot as often as not and I would like to see a change come over this culture. Some reasonable voices are trying.

But what would happen in this thread if this book were about a criticism of, say, Israel's government?

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05-05-2003, 08:05 PM	#2
crownboy Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NYC, New York Posts: 114	Yeah, I've read the book, and overall I think it's pretty good. As an African American myself, I certainly believe it's quite obvious that in many ways African Americans defeat themselves by having an overly negative "the white man is keeping me down" attitude on too many issues. Indeed, I have personally seen people in my own family who have failed to reach their full academic potential because they bought into the "learning is white" attitude, even after having early success in school. For me, I was somewhat insulated since I went to a minority black high school, but in my majority black junior high school, I did get some minor verbal flack for not "talking black", though not really for my academic stuff (I kept that stuff private, anyway). Another good feature of the book is that he does not employ an overly vitrolic style that I find in some books by black conservatives (e.g.: Larry Elder). He actually gives the "civil rights establishment" credit where it is due (something other black conservatives unrealistically never do), but he does lay it into Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. Being a pretty liberal person overall, many tend to be suprised that I'm somewhat "conservative" on these race issues, but if they make sense and speak truth, no sense in ignoring them. (I don't agree with every last word in the book, but most of it, nontheless).

05-06-2003, 12:03 PM	#3
crownboy Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NYC, New York Posts: 114	Actually, I sort of gave you an overview of Mc Whorter's latest book, Authentically Black , but I did read Loosing the Race, and it was a great book as well, though its contents are not fresh in my mind.

05-06-2003, 02:26 PM	#4
thefugitivesaint Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: philadelphia, PA. USA. Posts: 682	If you liked the previous books try out Blackness Visible: Essays on Philosophy and Race by Charles M. Mills. It's a nice approach to issues of race and how those issues relate to philosophy. His The Racial Contract is worth attention as well. -theSaint

05-06-2003, 02:36 PM	#5
beyelzu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: the peach state ga I am a metaphysical naturalist Posts: 2,869	I read Losing the Race by mcwhorter. I really enjoyed the book, I was interested by the book because Mcwhorter isnt Shelby Steele or Sowell. He seems to be a pretty liberal guy who happens to have an extremely unpopular veiw on affirmative action. all in all it is a really good book.

05-06-2003, 03:30 PM	#6
Lestat de Lioncourt Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 89	Thanks to everyone and their responses. Next question, have you read Dinesh D'Souza's book 'The End of Racism'? I have and I found it to be a very intelligent and well researched work on the issues of race in America. Especially on the struggles of blacks, which I believed he called 'black cultural pathology.' Which appears to be the same thing as what Mr. McWhorter is talking about when he mentions the 'cultural virus.' If these elements hold true and are affecting the black community as they reportedly (and evidently) are, why brush it under the rug? Why not admit these mistakes, learn from them and strive to better the situation(s)? If it's there, if it's real and if it's a problem (as it obviously is otherwise people wouldn't be writing about it) why not fix it? Why are people who do write about it labeled either a racist or an 'Uncle Tom?' This is the part (denial) that confuses me in all this stuff over 'race issues.' Lestat

05-06-2003, 05:31 PM	#7
Lestat de Lioncourt Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 89	As of today's date, 158 views and only 4 responses.... Lestat

05-06-2003, 06:04 PM	#8
Farren Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: South Africa Posts: 2,194	This thread makes interesting reading because it seems to me there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in discussions of race in predominantly European countries. I should preface my opinions by saying I think "race" is an invalid biological concept. Or at least falls into the same category as freckled vs non-freckled people, or red-heads vs brunettes. That said, I think its hard to address the perception of difference and the social gaps it produces is without using the language of the fallacy itself. Because of the vast gap Apartheid created there's much less common ground between white and black South Africans than between black and white americans. But, while a massive number of social inequaliities exist, the long dialog that led to a non-racial democracy has created a culture of confronting racially sensitive topics head on. People comfortably talk about "black culture" and "white culture" and "your people" and "my people" without any offense being implied or taken. I've noticed among the many American, European and Canadian peace corps types that came over here in the wake of apartheid that there's an altogether more subtle, sideways shuffle round topics like this which make it hard to get to the meat of the issue. I suspect the reasons behind this are decades of right-wingers hiding thier true intentions behind crypto-racist arguments (like "The Bell Curve"), resulting in language itself being a more sensitive area. I was at a meeting at a mostly black government department the other day (different departments still for some reason seem to be dominated by one race or the other), where I was being brought in as an IT consultant after an application development project had fucked up. One of the first things they said to me was "well, these obviously old-school white guys from the IT directorate (another local govt department) came in, sat down with us for about 30 minutes, didn't listen to a word we said, thought "these kaffirs (the local equivalent of 'niggers') don't know what the fuck is good for them, so we'll decide, and came back 6 months later with an application we couldn't use". To put this in perspective, I'm white, but the woman who heads the directorate sized me up, obviously decided "he's one of us" and said what had to be said to put the situation in context. By "us" I mean the black and white South Africans who acknowledge the divide and build bridges every day by speaking openly and frankly. By comparison, the dialogue I've had with black and white Americans and Canadians feel like you're walking carefully over glass in a dark room whenever racial issues come up. The one exeption to this was an extraordinary black American political scientist I met from Berkeley Campus, California, who was as straightforward a person as I've ever met. I suspect, though, that was to do with the fact that he had a taoist belief system, which demands that you confront the world as it is, without illusions.

05-06-2003, 10:25 PM	#10
Zar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 3,477	For criticizing people who are black, let alone black culture as a whole, I declare you all anti-African! And the author of the book and the African-Americans who liked it are self-hating African-Americans. Okay, I'm totally not serious. I'm kidding. This was a joke. In fact, as an African American, I personally am of the opinion that black folks shoot themselves in the foot as often as not and I would like to see a change come over this culture. Some reasonable voices are trying. But what would happen in this thread if this book were about a criticism of, say, Israel's government?

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