ex-preacher

There would also be no rape if everyone was a perfect humanist.

Or perfect Muslim.

Or perfect Sikh.

Or perfect Hindu.

Or perfect Buddhist.

What's your point?

In fact, the murder rate is lower in countries that are these other religions (or humanist) than it is in countries that are predominantly Christian.

RJS

But it sounds like you agree that a short term suffering can be for the long term good? Another
example is obviously the short-term suffering a child feels in the "time-out" after doing something wrong.

ex-preacher

Sure it can. Are you asserting that death by heat stroke followed by an eternity in hell (most Indians are Hindu or Muslim) is a long term good?

I would think that an all-powerful, all-good god could cure diseases without inflicting massive suffering.

You're comparing "time-out" to the painful deaths that face so many people and animals?

Hell: It's God's time-out. Because he loves you!

Who created the flu?

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

St. Robert

God can't murder anyone. If he could, he wouldn't be God. If you are referring to a negligent and homicidal being, you must be referring to someone else, perhaps the devil.

The just payment for sin is death. With the sins of the world on his back, God himself couldn't leave this world without being crucified.

ex-preacher

So the devil creates heat waves?

<strong> But he couldn't just stay dead could he? No, he had to cheat. Because, repeat after me, God makes up the rules, he doesn't have to play by them.

[ May 15, 2002: Message edited by: ex-preacher ]</p>

ex-preacher

And another question, St. Robert (my aren't we humble): Who created this negligent and homicidal being you call the devil?

RJS

St. Robert - its about time you showed up. I was just praying that someone would come and help me fend off all of these characters.

MrDarwin

I could possibly accept the idea that evil is necesary for there to be good, or that certain bad things have to happen in order for certain good things to happen.

What I just don't get is how eternal damnation ties into all this. God created a world in which all his creatures--human or otherwise--suffer. Okay, so maybe that suffering serves some purpose. But some people suffer a heck of a lot more than others. In fact, some people reject God specifically because of their suffering. But these people, like all those who reject God (and how many are there? how many will there be before it's all finished?), will suffer eternally when they die.

Attributing the Machiavellian idea that the end justifies the means--and by "means" I'm referring to billions of souls suffering eternal damnation--to an omnipotent and omniscient deity isn't just beyond belief, it's chilling. Creating billions of sentient souls, and ultimately allowing the vast majority of them to suffer without reprieve, just so a select few can bask eternally in the glory of God, is sickening. Sorry, the concept of a supposedly benevolent deity setting things up this way is simply beyond belief.

Jeremy Pallant

2 Samuel 11 verse 15. God murders a baby.

RJS

And many people accept God due to their suffering.

The concept of eternal damnation is really one of an eternal existence in the complete absence of God - which you have already specifically chosen! So you should rejoice (until you realize what the complete absence of God is like).