Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ensign Morituri · 05-20-2002, 03:08 PM

Quote:

from: ABBY AARON AND LITTLE MISS SOAPBOX

Who I Am

I’m just under five feet tall. Because I sometimes model, I never use my own computer to send and receive e-mail. Instead, I rely on close friends to relay your messages to me (sometimes throrugh non-computerized methods), and vice versa. Therefore, tracing IP addresses or encrypted file “watermarks” will lead you to my friends, but not to me. (I'm not being paranoid; you should see some of the e-mails I receive!) This Web site was donated to me and is maintained by my friends. This allows me to spend a large portion of my time on the road.

Um. Okay. Donuthead.

JL · 05-20-2002, 03:57 PM

Yeah, I dig those short n' stubby four feet tall models.

chipmunk · 05-20-2002, 04:28 PM

Well, if it's the Abby Aaron I'm thinking of, I think she used to post <a href="http://pub16.ezboard.com/brealism" target="_blank">here.</a>

In case anyone wanted to know.

irishajo · 05-20-2002, 04:32 PM

Would it be really catty of me to say that anyone who has 'petitecute' as part of her homepage's URL is more than likely looking for attention any way she can get it?

Automaton · 05-21-2002, 01:22 AM

PART 2 - �It�s Politics, Stupid!�

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The title of this part is in reference to Bill Clinton�s private, in-house campaign slogan among his advisors during his 1992 run for the White House. �It�s the Economy, Stupid!� served to remind the candidate of the most important reason people should choose him over then-President George H.W. Bush. It worked because it was a �stick-to-the-basics� strategy. It�s the same reason boxer Mohammed Ali used to say, �Keep hammering the body, and the head will come down.� And it�s why TV�s Lt. Columbo always followed the motives of his suspects, often against the physical evidence.

Huh?

What does this have to do with anything?

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Almost without exception, the atheists I met on the Internet said that they reached the conclusion that there was no God through cool-headed logic and a close examination of the evidence.

If you doubt this is so, then you're free to have a formal, written debate with me on the logical merits of theism. Hell, I bet almost all of the Infidels on this forum would be willing to do it as well.

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While I don�t doubt their sincerity�

Now now, didn't your mommy tell you not to lie? Of course you doubt their sincerity. Almost all of your essay is an "expos�" on the way atheists really think, contrary to our own claim that we are atheists for rational reasons.

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and that some of them have, in fact, used that approach�the words and actions of most atheists I�ve encountered indicate otherwise. In this and the next several parts of this series of commentaries, I�ll list what I believe are the reasons most atheists believe as they do.

Oh, please enlighten us.

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My experiences on atheist message boards have indicated to me that the main reason most atheists disbelieve in God is political.

So you're saying that this is nothing more than a propaganda piece to belittle atheists and espouse your own political beliefs? Oh, ok.

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This is not to say that they thought to themselves, �Since I believe in gun control (or abortion rights, or higher taxes), I�m going to become an atheist.� There�s no direct correlation between a specific political belief and a disbelief in God.

Yes, you can't build a strawman if you use actual tenets of real liberalism.

Quote:

However, unlike Christians, who let their religious beliefs lead them to their political philosophy,

Since conservative Christians who base their political beliefs on those of 2000-5000 year old Middle Eastern fables, if one lacks belief that those fables are accurate words of God, then one would of course lack the political beliefs that may come with them. Abby never had a firm grasp of the obvious.

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atheists tend to let their political philosophy lead them to their religious beliefs.

*laugh*

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I first began to suspect this after posting on a particular atheist forum for several months. The atmosphere of the board was friendly, and our debates were peppered with good-natured ribbing and tongue-in-cheek insults that were more humorous than harmful. In general, it was a pleasant place where meaningful exchanges of ideas were the order of the day. Then one day I casually mentioned that I was a political conservative. This shouldn�t have caught anyone by surprise, because I regularly included a link to my Web site in the signature of my posts. But a few of the atheists began asking me little questions to feel out my political opinions, i.e., on school vouchers, gay rights, Affirmative Action, etc. Within the next 72 hours, all �heck� broke loose. I was pelted with four-letter words and other such verbal tomatoes. Posters who had little to contribute to the religious debates suddenly exploded in anger toward me. I was called a �!@#$,� a �%^&*� and a �^%$#.� By the end of the third day, I had lost three friends, one of whom delivered an indirect threat to me (it was another one of those typical, �You know, Abby, I could easily get to you if I really wanted to, but that�s not my style,� kind of things).

In every forum (except those devoted to one of either side of the spectra, where some inequality is bound to exist), you're going to get very strong opinions from both sides. Even when this is granted, I find it extremely hard to believe the entire board would turn on you and start threatening you simply for revealing you're a conservative. Is it any wonder she won't provide any actual evidence for this?

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Up to that point, I thought that the advancement of atheism was their main concern.

Well you thought wrong, because the "advancement of atheism" doesn't even mean anything. Do people who don't believe in Santa consider it a movement?

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For most Christians, their faith is the most important thing in their lives, and their other concerns�their love of family, friends, politics, etc.�and based soundly on their religious foundation.

I find it somewhat discomforting that someone would actually hold the "love" (a warm fuzzy feeling when you think about sky fairies isn't love) of a figment of their imagination, above their own family.

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I thought atheist were the same way when it came to their godless philosophy.

LOL, why would the lack of something's existence have such an effect on our lives? Do you hold your lack of belief in Santa above your family as well?

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But based on their vigorous defense of their political beliefs, as compared to their lower-key arguments on behalf of atheism, I began to think otherwise.

Conversely, why do you spend so much of your site discussing political beliefs, and so little giving arguments for the existence of God? Why do you concern yourself more with presidential candidates than with ontology?

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People tend to defend what they hold dearest in their hearts�the dearer the beliefs, the stronger the defense for them�and the atheists on that message board defended their political philosophy more than they ever did their religious beliefs.

Said the pot to the kettle.

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In the weeks and months that followed, I observed the same sort of reaction on other atheist boards. No matter where I looked, I found that few things make an atheist angrier than an opposing political view.

And just what are YOU getting so worked up about, exactly? Oh yes, an opposing political view.

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But how can a political philosophy be the basis for a religious one, instead of the other way around?

Indeed.

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To answer that question, you have to take into account that the overwhelming majority of atheists I�ve meet on message boards�it works out to be above 95%�call themselves political liberals.

This figure is grossly distorted. It is actually only something like 65%. Again, anyone reading this is welcome to view Political Discussions for themselves.

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Liberals pride themselves on being in favor of �freedom,� as opposed to what they call �conservative oppression.�* They tend to define freedom as the absence of authority; in other words, they don�t like other people telling them what to do.

Hahahaha, of course Abby hates freedom and liberty! Especially freedom of speech, because it allows for all these nasty godless ideas to cloud her mind from the One True Truth(tm).

What about the Libertarian party, conservatives who hold freedom as the highest political concern? Abscence of authority is not social liberalism, it is libertarian socialism (a totally cooperative society) or anarchism (total chaos). Only the former can be said to be "liberal", and this is on the economic scale, a factor which Abby seems oblivious to.

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You can picture their view of life as being on a horizontal scale running left to right (both actual and political, by the way). On the left side of the scale is �total freedom,� where there are no rules, no moral standard and nobody is telling them what they can and can�t do. On the right end of the scale is total submission to a strict set of rules and moral standards. Liberals place themselves toward the left end of the scale.

This is NOT liberalism, this is anarchism! If the "scale" had anything to do with control, then why is a common liberal belief in gun control?!

By the way, if control is so "righteous" to Abby, would she have craved to live under the Taliban r�gime? Is slavery and oppression of minorities something to be praised?

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A traditional belief in God would imply the existence of a Supreme Being with a certain degree of authority, plus a set of rules and moral standards which would have to be observed. A liberal who believes in such a God, therefore, must move himself toward the right end of the scale, where he must subject himself to those rules and standards.

And what if those moral standards included personal liberty as of the highest value? Your view would be screwed then.

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The farther he moves himself toward the right, the more religious�and less liberal�he becomes.

If this were true, then there would only be extremely liberal atheists and extremely conservative Christians. Obviously this isn't the case.

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As was evidenced by the ferocity of their defense of liberalism�as opposed to their much lesser defense of atheism�I believe that the majority of atheists I have encountered give such a high priority to their liberalism that they refuse to move an inch toward the right. That is, they let their political philosophy hold them back from a belief in God.

Conservatism is NOT moralism. Atheism is NOT amoralism. Belief in such a God actually rules out objective moral standards, because morals would be merely dependent on God's being, totally subjective. If God said raping babies was moral, then it would be moral, under this viewpoint. If you accept morals are objective, as I do, then they exist as mathematical constructs do, as necessary abstract truths. What an absolutely ridiculous non sequitur.

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The existence of �liberal Christians� is the exception that proves the rule. When I made so many people on that message board angry at me by stating my conservative political views, one of the angriest was a person who claimed to be a Christian. But in his case, his political views were so far toward the left end of the scale, he had adopted a religious philosophy in which Jesus was reduced to the status of a mere �teacher� with no miracles to His credit, and God was demoted to a vague �Spirit,� Who was almost powerless and Whose Bible �may or may not be true.� It�s quite revealing to know that this person had been a atheist up until about a year before I came to the board. Sadly, the odds are great that he will soon return to atheism, because he still puts a greater emphasis on his political views than his religious ones�the earmark of so many atheists.

Yeah, liberal theists don't believe in anything, and are nearly atheists.

Never mind that Fundys barely ever contribute anything of worth to the debate, whereas some of the greatest Christian thinkers of history were of course, liberal theists.

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Remember, Christians look at the relationship between political and religious thought differently than do atheists. Their faith is their top priority, and they choose their political philosophy based on their religious beliefs, which is the opposite of how atheists place their priorities.

And liberal Christians are not Christians because they are liberal because they are not Christians? How marvellously irrational.

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To sum it up, then, I believe that the main reason most atheists reject�consciously or unconsciously�the idea of the existence of God is political.

Your "main reason" is laughably stupid.

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Next, we�ll examine some of the other reasons people choose atheism . . .

Deeper into the rabbit hole of ridiculous, unsupported assertions and empty strawmen . . .

Someone7 · 05-21-2002, 01:51 AM

<a href="http://www.the-archon.com/replies/abby.htm" target="_blank">http://www.the-archon.com/replies/abby.htm</a>

Automaton · 05-21-2002, 02:05 AM

PART 3 - What Hath Spock Wrought?

I won't respond to this point-by-point because there's so little actual substance here. Abby accuses atheists of trying to emulate Dr. Spock, and that is why we are arrogant and cold,

and we also alledgedly try to emulate scientists (who we hold as our lords and personal saviors) and try to know everything about science.

In essence, Abby is chastizing atheists for being smart! She hates us for having long scientific discussions with eachother. (She thinks this is vanity, showing off knowledge as if it were a trophy, but doesn't seem to grasp that those with a want for enquiry will generally be those who also find that God doesn't exist, and that science and philosophy are interesting.) Atheists also can't stand ridicule, so she says, thus we can never think "outside of the box" for fear of mockery from our peers. The amount of ferocious argument between atheists on this site on almost every issue under the sun is more than testament to the wrongness of that sentiment.

HelenM · 05-21-2002, 02:16 AM

I saw this on her home page (hope it's ok to quote)

Quote:

Current Personal Message from Little Miss Soapbox to YOU:

I would like to apologize to my atheist friends for a series of commentaries that appeared on this site. Although I stand by the conclusions I made, I should have presented them in a more sensitive way. Also, for those of you who tried to make an entry in my guest book but couldn�t because it was full, it has now been cleaned out to make room for new entries. Thank you very much!�Love, Abby (4/27/02)

When someone says something like that, then I tend to think: so, is she going to edit it, or is this simply a disclaimer in case of future complaints?

I would imagine that someone who was really sorry would edit what they had written.

Although, I see that she doesn't do the site herself - it's maintained by other people for her.

love
Helen

Automaton · 05-21-2002, 02:25 AM

PART 4 - �Leggo My Ego!�

Abby claims that atheists refuse to acknowledge God for any beneficial things that have happened in their lives, because they are too egotisitical to think anything but their own abilities got them where they are. (She would say this to a rich atheist, and say that "you just hate God for making you poor" to a poor atheist.

) But what is failed to be noted is that if one claims God is reponsible for all the good in the world, then the next step of logic is that God too (or perhaps Satan, one of God's cronies) must be resposible for all the bad that happens.

Automaton · 05-21-2002, 02:38 AM

Thanks Someone7, I didn't realise someone had already done my job for me. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Helen, I think she probably will edit it, but that doesn't make her "conclusions" about the reasons people are atheists and liberal Christians any more correct. I will definitely tone down my response to a simple critical analysis if she removes all the nasty generalizations though.

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05-20-2002, 03:57 PM	#22
JL Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mawkish Virtue, NC Posts: 151	Yeah, I dig those short n' stubby four feet tall models.

05-20-2002, 04:28 PM	#23
chipmunk Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Kirksville, MO Posts: 9	Well, if it's the Abby Aaron I'm thinking of, I think she used to post <a href="http://pub16.ezboard.com/brealism" target="_blank">here.</a> In case anyone wanted to know.

05-20-2002, 04:32 PM	#24
irishajo Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 186	Would it be really catty of me to say that anyone who has 'petitecute' as part of her homepage's URL is more than likely looking for attention any way she can get it?

05-21-2002, 01:51 AM	#26
Someone7 Banned Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 376	<a href="http://www.the-archon.com/replies/abby.htm" target="_blank">http://www.the-archon.com/replies/abby.htm</a>

05-21-2002, 02:05 AM	#27
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	PART 3 - What Hath Spock Wrought? I won't respond to this point-by-point because there's so little actual substance here. Abby accuses atheists of trying to emulate Dr. Spock, and that is why we are arrogant and cold, and we also alledgedly try to emulate scientists (who we hold as our lords and personal saviors) and try to know everything about science. In essence, Abby is chastizing atheists for being smart! She hates us for having long scientific discussions with eachother. (She thinks this is vanity, showing off knowledge as if it were a trophy, but doesn't seem to grasp that those with a want for enquiry will generally be those who also find that God doesn't exist, and that science and philosophy are interesting.) Atheists also can't stand ridicule, so she says, thus we can never think "outside of the box" for fear of mockery from our peers. The amount of ferocious argument between atheists on this site on almost every issue under the sun is more than testament to the wrongness of that sentiment.

05-21-2002, 02:25 AM	#29
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	PART 4 - �Leggo My Ego!� Abby claims that atheists refuse to acknowledge God for any beneficial things that have happened in their lives, because they are too egotisitical to think anything but their own abilities got them where they are. (She would say this to a rich atheist, and say that "you just hate God for making you poor" to a poor atheist. ) But what is failed to be noted is that if one claims God is reponsible for all the good in the world, then the next step of logic is that God too (or perhaps Satan, one of God's cronies) must be resposible for all the bad that happens.

05-21-2002, 02:38 AM	#30
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	Thanks Someone7, I didn't realise someone had already done my job for me. <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Helen, I think she probably will edit it, but that doesn't make her "conclusions" about the reasons people are atheists and liberal Christians any more correct. I will definitely tone down my response to a simple critical analysis if she removes all the nasty generalizations though.

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