lpetrich

And consider Adolf Hitler's surviving several attempts to assassinate him, sometimes as a result of quirks of fate that could be interpreted as evidence that someone down there liked him.

Radorth

Well of course God could help people in spite of their ignorance, but I have already admitted, in the case of war, that he seldom does. In some cases though, we see a chain of incredible circumstances, not just one or two which could rightly be attributed to bravery or dumb luck. Probably it was these ocurrences which moved even the scientist skeptic Franklin to assert that:

I have lived a long time sir, and the longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-that God governs the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable and empire can rise and fall without his aid?

(Surprise, surprise, the Convention is at a serious impasse over states' rights, when only voluntary "mutual submission" could possibly, and finally did, save the day)

But don't think about it too much. You might get gray hair and wrinkles thinking about it, and folks will begin listening no matter what nonsense you speak. That's what I've noticed.

Rad

happyboy

which side is God on? why, that's easy: both sides! our schizophrenic Deity can easily support both sides in a given war enthusiastically and without reservation. praise Allah! praise Jesus! they both want us to killkillkill!

happyboy, servant of the schizophrenic superGod

Yellum Notnef

Can anyone here decode this insult?

Demigawd

Through the Force, I sense some self-deprecating irony in Rad's post.

fishbulb

There was nothing miraculous about victory in the Second World War. It was a hard fought victory, but it was not so precariously won as you might think. Not breaking the Enigma codes may have forced the war to continue for longer. But then again, if the codes had been broken earlier, maybe the war wouldn't have lasted over five bloody years. In such a protracted struggle, both sides are bound to have bits of good and bad fortune.

World War II also wasn't quite as much of a good vs. evil fight as we like to make it out to be. The Nazis were as bad as everyone thinks they were, but the Allies weren't the angels we get to make ourselves out to be. Mundane political concerns played just as much of a role as the moral imperative to oust a horrific dictator. The Allies committed atrocities just like the Axis did. Nothing near the scope of the Holocaust, of course, but reprehensible nonetheless. Being victorious, we had the privilege of playing up enemy atrocities and downplaying our own.

One should also bear in mind that the lion's share of the fighting and dying was done by the Soviet Union: a nation ruled by a dictator every bit as brutal as Hitler, if not moreso, and the largest officially atheist nation in the history of the world. And the defeat of Hitler did not result in everyone's freedom. Freedom ended a few hundred kilometers east of the Rhine.

In short, the Allies' motives and actions were more morally ambiguous than we are generally taught, their success in liberating Europe was less complete than is usually portrayed, and the outcome of the war never hinged on any one particular battle or chance occurrance. Over 50 million people died as a direct result of the war. That's twice the present day population of California wiped from the face of the Earth. It doesn't seem to me as though there was anything supernatural involved.

fishbulb

That's a nice bit of selective thinking, but democracy has been a hard-won concept in the Christian world too. Throughout the history of the West, the church has been one of the most ardent opponents of democracy. You really didn't want to have an opinion the church didn't also share before about 1700, and even then you had to be careful.

The difference between a Western European democracy and a South American dictatorship is not that one population is Christian and the other not. The difference is that one has a better educated, more affluent, and more politically involved middle class.

The world's first democratic polity was built more than 500 years before Christianity existed. Christians took their first baby steps toward democracy only in 1215 (and it was nothing close to modern notions of representative government), 1700 years later, and it was not until the 1780s when the U.S. constitution was drafted that the first modern democratic nation was created. The last of the non-constitutional European Christian monarchies was not abolished until 1918. (Or perhaps even later, though by then the last of the remaining big three: Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Russia, were gone.)

I think that you are right that, even if by some chance the coalition of the willing actually makes good on its promise to institute democracy in Iraq, it won't last. Not because Iraqis are muslims (there are many muslims in, for example, the United States, who embrace democracy) but because there is no cultural precedent for governing themselves in this way. It is likely to fail for the same reason democracy has failed in many (Christian) African nations. Then again, it did work in (non-Christian) Japan, so there is always a chance.

DoubleDutchy

'Der Herrgott ist immer mit den grössten Bataillonen'
(God always helps the largest bataillons)

Frederick the Great King of Prussia

Radorth

"Nothing like the holocaust of course, and well, the Russian officers were obliged to shoot their men to keep them from raping too many German women, almost none of whom complained about the American conquerors but my history professor says we did all sorts of bad things.

I don't suppose you ever bother with supplying proven facts, being you are apparently a skeptic who deals in such commodities. Oh wait, here's one:

Well I had to wait until I came to an actual fact before getting serious. Whew man. You can preach with the best of them. I guess you were so busy pointing out ordinary human failings, swatting gnats, and dredging up Catholic history, you failed to mention where all the money came from to feed, clothe, protect, rebuild, etc for our former enemies. (My Dad's rather thin wallet) Those Protestants are a forgiving bunch, though we all know now they are just worried about gas prices.

Well gee, I'm not exactly saying God's will was done on earth as it is in heaven. You just said it could have gone on longer but for some extraordinary turns of events. That was pretty much my point.

Rad

Radorth

Grins Demigawd.

This skeptic has a future, hopefully an eternal one.

One more Zen course....

Rad