Apikorus

Theophilus, why don't you answer the questions put to you and let Albert fight his own battles?

Incidentally, to a traditional Catholic like Albert, the biblical canon includes Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, and other books which Protestants exclude from the bible. Could you explain why Ezra is "scripture" but Sirach is not? Or is Sirach "scripture" as well?

theophilus

But that's the whoe issue, isn't it. You draw your own conclusions and don't even know what power is controlling or determining the conclusions you draw.

Apikorus

Theophilus, you are digging yourself ever deeper into a hole, I'm afraid.

Apparently you are unable to prove that which you claimed, namely that your thoughts are not controlled by an external agent. That you refuse to answer questions concerning the biblical canon suggests that you are unable to provide a sensible reply on that matter as well.

Since Albert is a believer, though, perhaps you could explain to him why books regarded as scriptural by the Catholics, such as Sirach, Tobit, et al., are not scripture to the Protestants. While theological luddites such as myself and other atheists might not grasp your divinely inspired reasoning, Albert's spiritual pedigree is well-nigh unassailable. Surely he would understand your words. Care to give it a go? In the words of Peter Sellers (as Chance the Gardener), "I like to watch".

Finally, you have insisted many times now that the Bible is your "standard of truth". The implication seems to be that any putative fact must first be squared with the Bible. I'd like to understand better what this means. Suppose I were to prove to you that the square root of two is an irrational number. How would you use the Bible to check that claim? And how do you interpret abject contradictions in the biblical text itself (e.g. 1 Kings 4 versus 2 Chr 9 on the number of Solomon's stables, 1 Sam 17 versus 2 Sam 21 on who killed Goliath, etc.)?

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

Albert Cipriani

Theophilus,
See what Apikorus is trying to do to us, Theophilus?! Divide and conquer!

Stand firm, my man. Don't swallow his bait. We have met the enemy and it ain't us! It's them side-winding logic-ignoring, brain-draining atheists.

Don't 'splain nuthin to the bum. Sure, Catholics have got 7 more Biblical books than you do. Yeah, and we've got 7 sacraments to your one or two. And everyone knows we have infallible authority whereas you guys have only got private judgment. I know, I know, we've got 2,000 years of tradition to your mere 500, and a tons of saints to boot, not to mention our cool uniforms. But let's not let all this come between us. – Cheers, Albert the Traditional Catholic

Apikorus

Seven additional books to the Bible? Oh, dear. There seems to be some disagreement as to the extent of the Divine Writ itself! Are there any Greek Orthodox here to defend the canonical status of Psalm 151 and 3 Maccabees?

Albert should perhaps reassess who his friends are. While atheists such as myself don't subscribe to the dogmas of the Catholic Church, we don't go around identifying it with the Whore of Babylon, as many low-church Protestants are wont to do. I've heard far nastier comments about the Pope from the lips of Baptists than I ever have from an atheist. And oh! how those Protestants ridicule veneration of the Virgin Mary.

But shoulder-to-shoulder, Albert! Keep up the united front!

GunnerJ

Albert, the metaphorical cobra, stealthily and cunningly seeks an alliance with a mongoose...

theophilus

I wanted to go back to this point - not that it bears directly on the discussion (I'm not sure what does bear directly on the discussion), but because it reflects a common misunderstanding of Christian theology.
No one is "punished" because of Adam and Eve's sin, or anybody else's sin.
When Adam sinned, he "fell," and all his descendants fell "in him." The fall brought the corruption and contamination which we see all around us. It also eliminated the possibility of any person being reighteous before God "on his own merit."
Each man bears the guilt of his own sin because all sin.

[ January 11, 2002: Message edited by: theophilus ]</p>

lpetrich

"The Greatest Story Ever Told"???

However, consider how plagiarism cases are handled; very strong similarities, such as word-for-word matches, are considered evidence for copying.

And thus, Jesus Christ's Mythic-Hero features suggest that his biographies have at least as much bogosity as those of Moses, Hercules, Perseus, Romulus and Remus, Krishna, and the Buddha.

By contrast, Mohammed and Charles Darwin score much lower; Mohammed is depicted as being much more like a real person, and Charles Darwin is not only known to have existed, he has written several books. Now how many books did Jesus Christ ever write?

lpetrich

Satan? Theophilus, do you have any direct acquaintance with this entity? Have you been eavesdropping on Satan and his friends? Have you found any documents in which Satan and his friends had described their plans to plant fake mythic-hero stories?

This seems much like the theory, common among early Christian apologists, that Satan had set up pagan mystery religions to distract people by offering them an opportunity to practice similar religious rites.

That's been discussed a fair amount, and IMO, Hume's criterion is a legitimate one.

hinduwoman

In that case, no debate is possible at all. The bible is the word of god because it says so. But that same argument can be given about Gita: Krishna says he is God; ergo, he is god. But somehow I don't think that is how christians think.