Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 01:48 PM

You could start out by perusing www.religioustolerance.org.

Tabula_rasa · 04-01-2003, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Mageth:
You could start out by perusing www.religioustolerance.org.

Yes, jmborr, you could do that. Sorry, it's late in the day and the glucose isn't arriving to my brain at the appropriate times.

Tabula_rasa

jmborr · 04-01-2003, 02:25 PM

How did you "score" them?
I got bored after reading about them. Have you tried to read through a boring book? It is really doom.
So you don't think a cat knows it's a "cat",
however it forms the concept in its own little kitty thoughts? They sure know that another cat is a cat, and a dog, scratching post or stuffed animal are not cats, so they appear able to distinguish cat from not-cat.
Precisely my wife was telling me yesterday that dogs who stay all of their lifes with humands, tend to "think" somehow that they are humans too, or put it milder, that the dog does not have a clear cut distinction between his masters and himself. I will ask her where did she get this.
Striving for a life beyond this animal life we have... is a hopeless fantasy, a bit of foolishness we've cooked up in our human "wisdom."
This foolishness that humans posses makes the difference with the other animals. I hold on dearly to my foolisness. Why should you reject something that is genuine to you, and reduce yourself to the animal level? Do not be afraid and take the jump!

humility is one of the basic teachings of any of the major modern religions that come to mind. What, pray tell, led you to believe otherwise?
You are right. I was referring to the specific belief of christianity that asserts that no matter what you do throughout your live, you do not qualify for eternal live.
You have to surrender (very similar to Islam here) your intentions to build your own salvation, and let God(Jesus) do it for you (now this becomes different to Islam. In islam, to obtain salvation, you follow a set of commandements given by God, not by yourself).

I hope you provide some evidence to back up such an insulting remark.
The previous discussion I had with an atheist (Nogo), I end up reading the four gospels three times, looking for some specific things. I also have a job to do !
What I want to say is that the atheist many times shields oneself with the "proove me that" sentence, because it is very confortable and sounds fair. Well, if there is a potential good in the proposition, then it may be worth to take the effort to discover it by oneself, instead of asking and asking the "give it to me".

About the books you write, an honest advice: read Islam from the Koran, then from muslims. Read christianity from the bible, then from christians, and the like.
I have read part of "The World's Religions" by Huston Smith and I can tell he does not portray christianity correctly. There is no "life" in the way he writes about it, and this is so because the book is devoid of faith and you can notice it. Thus, I did not read about the other religions in the book with trust. I assumed the others were wrongly portrayed too.

What do you know about Zen Buddhism?
Can you enter a synagogue or a mosque ??? This is great, cause on fridays I go to the mosque, on saturdays to the synagogue, and on sundays to church !

Amaranth · 04-01-2003, 02:39 PM

Quote:

kmbrr wrote:
You are right. I was referring to the specific belief of christianity that asserts that no matter what you do throughout your live, you do not qualify for eternal live.
You have to surrender (very similar to Islam here) your intentions to build your own salvation, and let God(Jesus) do it for you (now this becomes different to Islam. In islam, to obtain salvation, you follow a set of commandements given by God, not by yourself).

All right...I'm missing something here, obviously. Let's establish what we have:

Both - Surrender your own desires.

Christianity - Let god build your salvation.

Islam - Follow gods rules and build your own salvation.

I'm sorry, but it honestly looks like you are attempting to say that doing something yourself, using god as a guidepost, is more arrogant than having god do it for you? Throw me a hand here, because I don't think I follow.

Quote:

kmbrr wrote:
I got bored after reading about them. Have you tried to read through a boring book? It is really doom.

You chose your religion based upon its entertainment value?

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 02:42 PM

I got bored after reading about them. Have you tried to read through a boring book? It is really doom.

So "boring" is the metric you judge religions by, and the other religions you read about were more "boring" than xianity? Interesting, I must say. Not exactly a valid way to determine which may be correct, but interesting.

BTW, my cat acts bored quite often. Perhaps she's Buddhist.

Precisely my wife was telling me yesterday that dogs who stay all of their lifes with humands, tend to "think" somehow that they are humans too, or put it milder, that the dog does not have a clear cut distinction between his masters and himself. I will ask her where did she get this.

And no matter how hard a poor dog tries, it will always be a dog. Even dogs could learn from cats, it seems, as I've never met a cat that would presume to think it was something it was not.

This foolishness that humans posses makes the difference with the other animals.

I would put our facility for language above such philosophical musings as the key difference, since such "folly" would not be possible without that capability.

I hold on dearly to my foolisness. Why should you reject something that is genuine to you, and reduce yourself to the animal level?

If it works for you, go for it. Me and my cat will both be satisfied in our animalness. And I'm not "reducing" myself to the animal level; I am an animal, a marevelously complex, thinking human animal, but an animal nonetheless.

Do not be afraid and take the jump!

I'll leave the jumping to my cat, who through her catness excels at jumping.

Way · 04-01-2003, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jmborr
According to John's gospel, it is Jesus who judges.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers Yahweh (God) will judge.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to Yahweh (God) the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

1Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

hmmmmmm - take ya pick

:banghead:

--------------------------------------------

Hi All, new here, been lurking for some time,
Lets see where the ripples lead.

Way

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 03:02 PM

Good point, Way. I'll add John 12:47-49:

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

jmborr · 04-01-2003, 03:33 PM

it honestly looks like you are attempting to say that doing something yourself, using god as a guidepost, is more arrogant than having god do it for you?
Put it in this way: You offend severely two persons. Later these two persons come and one offers you a marvellous gift, while the other is selling it. Which option is less embarrassing for you to accept ?

You chose your religion based upon its entertainment value?
Haven't you heard that the word of God is "alive"? This is the opposite to what I wanted to say with "boring".

I would put our facility for language above such philosophical musings as the key difference, since such "folly" would not be possible without that capability.
Wow

English is not my first language. Please reduce you english level and explain this to me.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:47-49
This passage is what I had in mind. Jesus is the word of God that brings judgment to the world. I am sorry I messed the whole thing. Back to the Bible, I guess.
But again, it is not I who bring judgment on other people.

About 1 Corinthians 6 I have to read it in detail. I don't have time now.

Mageth · 04-01-2003, 03:44 PM

Put it in this way: You offend severely two persons. Later these two persons come and one offers you a marvellous gift, while the other is selling it. Which option is less embarrassing for you to accept ?

Put it this way. You severely offend one person. Do you send someone else to make amends or go yourself to apologize?

Or this way. You kill someone. An innocent man is put on trial in your place. Morally, should you let him take the punishment for you, or come forward and admit your guilt and suffer the consequences even if the innocent man is taking your place voluntarily?

Haven't you heard that the word of God is "alive"? This is the opposite to what I wanted to say with "boring".

I don't see the bible as being any more "alive" than any other religious text.

Wow English is not my first language. Please reduce you english level and explain this to me.

I think language is a more important distinction between man and animals than our ability to dream of such foolishness as eternal life, as I think the former (language) is required for us to even dream up the latter.

Better?

This passage is what I had in mind. Jesus is the word of God that brings judgment to the world. I am sorry I messed the whole thing. Back to the Bible, I guess.

Wrong; this passage indicates the Father is he who judges, not Jesus. Read it again carefully.

Amaranth · 04-01-2003, 05:45 PM

Quote:

jmbrr wrote:
Put it in this way: You offend severely two persons. Later these two persons come and one offers you a marvellous gift, while the other is selling it. Which option is less embarrassing for you to accept ?

False analogy. The Christian is not offering me a marvelous gift - He is apologizing and asking me to forgive him. The Islamic is apologizing and trying to live his life in a way that would no longer offend me, based on what I've told him. It seems to me that the Christian wants a hand out, while the Islamic is willing to put in his own effort to make things right.

Perhaps you could make a case for the Islamic god being more arrogant, in that he demands a more rigid subservience from his subjects. His requirements for paradise are certainly more stringent. Perhaps that is the point you are attempting to make, though it has no relevance to original subject of you suggesting that Christianity is more humble than Islam (or Buddhism, for that matter). Let's stay on topic here.

To call an Islamic arrogant for not only commiting as much as a Christian does (belief and admittance of sin), but for also going the extra mile and trying to work his own way into paradise by following gods rules is quite backwards. Let's take this a few steps further - The Islamics follow the teachings of Allah (god) through Mohammad (his prophet). Christians learned the teaching of Jehova (god) through Jesus (god). Which sounds more arrogant, again? Futhermore - Mohammad taught his followers how to enter paradise through a way of life and ritual, while Christians believe that Jesus actually died to get them into paradise. Once again, evaluate.

So two men wrong you severely. One comes to the door, and apologizes, then suggests you forgive and forget by cutting off your right hand and having it sewn back on. The second man comes to your door, apologizes, and promises to follow the rules you have laid down. Which do you let in, and which do you call arrogant and leave standing on the doorstep?

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04-01-2003, 01:48 PM	#91
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	You could start out by perusing www.religioustolerance.org.

04-01-2003, 02:25 PM	#93
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	How did you "score" them? I got bored after reading about them. Have you tried to read through a boring book? It is really doom. So you don't think a cat knows it's a "cat", however it forms the concept in its own little kitty thoughts? They sure know that another cat is a cat, and a dog, scratching post or stuffed animal are not cats, so they appear able to distinguish cat from not-cat. Precisely my wife was telling me yesterday that dogs who stay all of their lifes with humands, tend to "think" somehow that they are humans too, or put it milder, that the dog does not have a clear cut distinction between his masters and himself. I will ask her where did she get this. Striving for a life beyond this animal life we have... is a hopeless fantasy, a bit of foolishness we've cooked up in our human "wisdom." This foolishness that humans posses makes the difference with the other animals. I hold on dearly to my foolisness. Why should you reject something that is genuine to you, and reduce yourself to the animal level? Do not be afraid and take the jump! humility is one of the basic teachings of any of the major modern religions that come to mind. What, pray tell, led you to believe otherwise? You are right. I was referring to the specific belief of christianity that asserts that no matter what you do throughout your live, you do not qualify for eternal live. You have to surrender (very similar to Islam here) your intentions to build your own salvation, and let God(Jesus) do it for you (now this becomes different to Islam. In islam, to obtain salvation, you follow a set of commandements given by God, not by yourself). I hope you provide some evidence to back up such an insulting remark. The previous discussion I had with an atheist (Nogo), I end up reading the four gospels three times, looking for some specific things. I also have a job to do ! What I want to say is that the atheist many times shields oneself with the "proove me that" sentence, because it is very confortable and sounds fair. Well, if there is a potential good in the proposition, then it may be worth to take the effort to discover it by oneself, instead of asking and asking the "give it to me". About the books you write, an honest advice: read Islam from the Koran, then from muslims. Read christianity from the bible, then from christians, and the like. I have read part of "The World's Religions" by Huston Smith and I can tell he does not portray christianity correctly. There is no "life" in the way he writes about it, and this is so because the book is devoid of faith and you can notice it. Thus, I did not read about the other religions in the book with trust. I assumed the others were wrongly portrayed too. What do you know about Zen Buddhism? Can you enter a synagogue or a mosque ??? This is great, cause on fridays I go to the mosque, on saturdays to the synagogue, and on sundays to church !

04-01-2003, 02:42 PM	#95
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I got bored after reading about them. Have you tried to read through a boring book? It is really doom. So "boring" is the metric you judge religions by, and the other religions you read about were more "boring" than xianity? Interesting, I must say. Not exactly a valid way to determine which may be correct, but interesting. BTW, my cat acts bored quite often. Perhaps she's Buddhist. Precisely my wife was telling me yesterday that dogs who stay all of their lifes with humands, tend to "think" somehow that they are humans too, or put it milder, that the dog does not have a clear cut distinction between his masters and himself. I will ask her where did she get this. And no matter how hard a poor dog tries, it will always be a dog. Even dogs could learn from cats, it seems, as I've never met a cat that would presume to think it was something it was not. This foolishness that humans posses makes the difference with the other animals. I would put our facility for language above such philosophical musings as the key difference, since such "folly" would not be possible without that capability. I hold on dearly to my foolisness. Why should you reject something that is genuine to you, and reduce yourself to the animal level? If it works for you, go for it. Me and my cat will both be satisfied in our animalness. And I'm not "reducing" myself to the animal level; I am an animal, a marevelously complex, thinking human animal, but an animal nonetheless. Do not be afraid and take the jump! I'll leave the jumping to my cat, who through her catness excels at jumping.

04-01-2003, 03:02 PM	#97
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Good point, Way. I'll add John 12:47-49: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

04-01-2003, 03:33 PM	#98
jmborr Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: everett MA USA Posts: 46	it honestly looks like you are attempting to say that doing something yourself, using god as a guidepost, is more arrogant than having god do it for you? Put it in this way: You offend severely two persons. Later these two persons come and one offers you a marvellous gift, while the other is selling it. Which option is less embarrassing for you to accept ? You chose your religion based upon its entertainment value? Haven't you heard that the word of God is "alive"? This is the opposite to what I wanted to say with "boring". I would put our facility for language above such philosophical musings as the key difference, since such "folly" would not be possible without that capability. Wow English is not my first language. Please reduce you english level and explain this to me. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. John 12:47-49 This passage is what I had in mind. Jesus is the word of God that brings judgment to the world. I am sorry I messed the whole thing. Back to the Bible, I guess. But again, it is not I who bring judgment on other people. About 1 Corinthians 6 I have to read it in detail. I don't have time now.

04-01-2003, 03:44 PM	#99
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Put it in this way: You offend severely two persons. Later these two persons come and one offers you a marvellous gift, while the other is selling it. Which option is less embarrassing for you to accept ? Put it this way. You severely offend one person. Do you send someone else to make amends or go yourself to apologize? Or this way. You kill someone. An innocent man is put on trial in your place. Morally, should you let him take the punishment for you, or come forward and admit your guilt and suffer the consequences even if the innocent man is taking your place voluntarily? Haven't you heard that the word of God is "alive"? This is the opposite to what I wanted to say with "boring". I don't see the bible as being any more "alive" than any other religious text. Wow English is not my first language. Please reduce you english level and explain this to me. I think language is a more important distinction between man and animals than our ability to dream of such foolishness as eternal life, as I think the former (language) is required for us to even dream up the latter. Better? This passage is what I had in mind. Jesus is the word of God that brings judgment to the world. I am sorry I messed the whole thing. Back to the Bible, I guess. Wrong; this passage indicates the Father is he who judges, not Jesus. Read it again carefully.

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