Vinnie

That doesn't follow.

And I wasn't being coy. I simply wanted to know how such information is obtained. You appealed to academic authority. I have read texts which state that there are problems determining how many people lived in Palestine in the ancient world and so fourth. But if we do know of enough names we could probably infer this data to a certain degree of confidence. I am just curious.

Vinnie

SLD

I don't think Paul believed everything he said, no. After all, Paul quotes Dionysus from Euripides play, the Bacchae in the famous kicking against the Goads line. Yeah, I'd say that was pretty much fabricated. Unless we assume that Jesus liked to use lines from Greek plays about persecuted gods.

In fact, Paul's whole conversion story is too similar King Pentheus's conversion to be taken seriously.

Perhaps Paul did experience some sort of "event", call it a mental breakdown (Maccoby argues this) or whatever, and he suddenly interprets the Messianic movement led by some crucified (and still dead) guy named Jesus in the same way that many others viewed a variety of Mystery cults. Is that how it happened? I don't know, but it seems as educated a guess as any of us can make. Paul may indeed have been sincere about his belief, but I think we also have to understand that Paul lived in a world with a very different philosophical outlook than we have today. There was no modern scientific outlook. Claims of demons and a variety of dieing and rising gods who saved people from their sins were the daily staple of people back then. People invented religions. Lots of them.

Could you be more specific with respect to your point about Paul passing along information? I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Paul did not discuss much, if anything, about Jesus's earthly life and ministry.

SLD

Vinnie

I don't reconstruct supernatural claims.

Vinnie

Goliath

Vinnie,

Are you, or are you not claiming that Jesus Christ factually existed? If so, then you are making a supernatural claim. It is that simple.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Vorkosigan

When other myths are always re-told in other ways why is the Jesus story always the same on the basic outline? .

Because it is not a myth. It is a piece of fiction construction created to aid the enforcement of theological and political orthodoxy. You'll have to step back, like I asked you to, and show that the proper object for comparison is myth. It isn't myth. There's much more control of the subject matter, and much more deliberate construction.

Vorkosigan

Vinnie

The existence of Jesus of Nazareth is a supernatural claim? :boohoo: :banghead:

Vinnie

Even in Palestine? What evidence is there of this?

Vinnie

K

But there is only one way for the guys at the Alamo to die, there is only one death for Arthur, and there is only one way that Achilles is portrayed as dying, that's by being shot with a poison arrow in the heel - the one location where he wasn't invincible. Why? Because that's how he really died. No one could deny it, so no one ever proposed another method.

But there is only one way for the guys at the Alamo to die, there is only one death for Arthur, and there is only one way that Romeo and Juliet are portrayed as dying, that's by suicide due to the grief of losing a true love. Why? Because that's how they really died. No one could deny it, so no one ever proposed another method.

Goliath

Vinnie,

Since you also believe that he is the son of a god, then obviously it is a supernatural claim.

Sincerely,

Goliath

SLD

Two points: Yes, we have archeological evidence of a variety of religious mystery cults throughout the Roman Empire, even Palestine. Even if they weren't in Palestine proper, are you seriously arguing that the Jews were not exposed to the variety of other religious beliefs in the empire? I wouldn't think that would be a strong argument.

Second, Paul, (the inventor of Christianity, IMHO) was not from Palestine, but from Tarsus. He claimed Roman Citizenship right? And his parents were supposed to be tent makers? Tarsus was indeed a hot spot of a variety of mystery cults. It seems a logical conclusion (though admittedly there is no hard evidence, and unlikely that we will have such evidence) that Paul was heavily influenced by his childhood experiences in Tarsus amongst the various mystery cults, even if he was raised Jewish.

SLD