Monkeybot

What Nicklaus said!

An example of an anecdote, as I understand it, would be:

Bob: "My buddy John had acupuncture done a while back. He said it worked great!"

Now, from this alone, we can't make any generalizations about acupuncture. The placebo affect could be at work, the acupuncturist could have laced his needles with happy medication, or the acupuncture itself may have actually worked. There are numerous possibilities, none of which are conclusively demonstrated by Bob's anecdote.

Now let's say Bob tells us: "My buddies Sarah, Henrietta, and Clyde all had great experiences with acupuncture, but my friend Roger didn't."

Well, great! That means out of Bob's 5 friends, 4 of them had great experiences with acupuncture. That's an 80% success rate!

However, what this does not take into account, and what studies try to correct, is the number of people who go to acupuncturists, say, annually. Let's say Bob's friends are 5 out of 1,000 people who have been to acupuncturists this year. Well, that means they constitute 0.05% acupuncture patients. Not encouraging.

There could be numerous reasons for Bob's friends' success (and failure) with acupuncture. Placebo effect, incurability of the condition, or validity of acupuncture are all decent hypotheses. The difference between a "study" and a "collection of anecdotes" is that studies attempt to control for these factors, while anecdotes do not.

Mad Kally

Oh nurse's aide, we're going to have a big code brown over here!!!!

Dr Rick

...too late; he already has.

I guess the only question remaining is: which end of his do we wipe, first?

Rick

Corwin

Insisting that I'm full of shit won't make weaseling any easier... despite what you think.

You have claimed that the source of acupuncture's wild claims is irrelevant. In so many words.

However, I (and most other people who don't have an axe to grind here) would respectfully suggest that wild claims made by people who aren't accupuncture pracitioners, and that aren't used by accupuncture practitioners to endorse their practice, are in fact irrelevant.

Your initial statement would seem to suggest that you disagree. Your later statements would seem to suggest that you're trying to weasel out of your initial statement.

First it's relevant, then it's not relevant... which is it? Make up your mind please. Of course there are wild claims about what acupuncture can do... there are wild claims about just about anything. Exactly what relevance does a wild claim from a detractor or someone who simply doesn't know what they're talking about have concerning the effectiveness of acupuncture?

Mad Kally

Shift change!!! <kally throws 6 blankets on top of him and clocks out>

Corwin

Ok, there's one vote for 'anything as long as it supports my agenda....'

Anybody else?

Dr Rick

No, but debating you is easy because you are so full of it.

<strong> The validity of a claim rests on it's objective support. We should accept a valid claim whether or not it came from an accupuncturist, and reject an invalid claim no matter where it came from, and every statement I have made in this thread is consistent with that position.

You, on the other hand, have posted strawmen and nonsense.


<strong> You are not respectful, clearly have an axe to grind, and just posted a non sequitor.

<strong> You're lying and just trying to deflect criticism from your stupid 'anecdotes' argument.

You can't post the intial statement verbatim because you are lying and there is no contradiction, so you post strawmen, instead.

<strong> Another nonsensical strawman.

<strong> I have; you're a dolt.

<strong> And another strawman.

Rick

Dr Rick

Agreed; it's time for his babysitter to take over.

Rick

Corwin

Belittle, lie, obfuscate, distort.

Are you two sure you aren't fundies?

My arguments stand. Unlike you I don't have to lie.

alek0

There are also studies which show that acupuncture is effective for pain.

An example:
TITLE: Acupuncture for chronic low back pain: a randomized placebo-controlled study with long-term follow-up.
AUTHOR: Carlsson,-C-P; Sjolund,-B-H
SOURCE: Clin-J-Pain. 2001 Dec; 17(4): 296-305.

What might be of interest to original poster:
TITLE: Efekt ot akupunkturata pri dismenoreia.
[The effect of acupuncture in dysmenorrhea]
AUTHOR: Tsenov,-D
SOURCE: Akush-Ginekol-(Sofiia). 1996; 35(3): 24-5.
But this is a small study, shows positive effect for primary dysmennorhea, but the study looks quite lousy.

I would also like to know why, if acupuncture doesn't work, was there change in pain threshold?
TITLE: Sympathetic nerve activity after acupuncture in humans.
AUTHOR: Knardahl,-S; Elam,-M; Olausson,-B; Wallin,-B-G
SOURCE: Pain. 1998 Mar; 75(1): 19-25.
"Electroacupuncture produced an increase in pain threshold which was paralleled by a transient increase in muscle sympathetic nerve activity. During acupuncture, there was a small increase in heart rate and mean arterial pressure, but there was no post-acupuncture hypotension. The placebo control procedure did not change pain threshold or sympathetic nerve traffic. The findings suggest that electroacupuncture produces moderate hypoalgesia in humans paralleled by a significant increase in muscle sympathetic nerve activity."

What needs to be taken into account is that most studies on acupuncture have poorly designed control groups. On discussion of this see:
TITLE: Acupuncture, transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation, and laser therapy in chronic pain.
AUTHOR: Fargas-Babjak,-A
SOURCE: Clin-J-Pain. 2001 Dec; 17(4 Suppl): S105-13.
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Finally, I would like to say a couple of words to two medical professionals here.

1) Being objective is not citing only studies which support your point of view and ignoring others.

2) Insulting people who disagree with you is unscientific, irrational, and just plain rude.

3) While Corwin is too enthusiastic about many things which are not likely to work (like Drexler's self-replicating nanomachines) that does not mean that Corwin (or anyone else) is full of shit.
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Disclaimer: I have not tried acupuncture and have no intention to do so. Based on the existing literature it is my personal assessment that there isn't sufficient evidence that it works.
However, there are studies which show positive effects and their existence should be acknowledges by anyone who tries to be really objective. However, most of the studies on acupuncture have poorly designed control groups.

I would probably try it if I run out of other options and what conventional medicine has to offer would involve too many risks/side effects. I don't see what harm does it do to try alternative treatments if conventional ones either didn't work or involve unacceptable risks and side effects.