sullster

Wolf and Chuck,

Thanks for your replies. Being a history buff and Civil War buff too, some of my views on the South are colored by histories of that period and afterwards.
The rural and agricultural aspects of the South do explain why the church is so influential. It does seem that agricultural areas are more thiestic and I am sure that such a topic has been covered in the Secweb.
I do recall some historical analysis of the ante-bellum South that has some resonance with your views. The plantation-owning classes maintained an association with poor whites through militias, hunting clubs and the churches. The plantation types wouldn't invite them to their big parties and really didn't help with their lots in life but they fired guns together and went to church. These patterns were very helpful when the plantation owners needed soldiers for the Confederate armies. Thus the old line,"Rich man's war and poor man's fight".

I brought up the disdain against the culture of the North which was present before and after the Civil War. It is normal in war to portray your enemies as low-lives and the Confederates were no exception. One of the Southern generals described the North as being corrupt, full of dirty catholic immigrants and rich mill owners who have bought a mercenary army. The idea was that the South was "pure" and was the true American area: anglo-saxon and protestant.

I maintain that the South still harbors the views and culture from the pre-Civil War era and that the raging protestant fundamentalism is the descendant of those views.

Lest I sound like a raging Yankee, I will gladly critique the North at another time.

zamboniavenger

I thought I'd pipe in with my perspective as a southern atheist. I'd just like to point out that parts of the south aren't farms, cows, and rednecks with guns. While a place like Atlanta might not be as secular as a northern city, it has MUCH more in common with one than than the backwoods towns an hour outside the city. I went to high school in metro Atlanta and now I'm going to college in Athens(see The Onion this week). I do know my fair share of fundys, but it is possible(for me at least) to surround myself with cool, forward thinking individuals. A majority of friends are atheists, and most of my "religious" friends are unitarian. Of course, I'm an 18 year old on a college campus. I think the main problem is rurality(I don't think that's even a word, but it works), and I daresay that applies anywhere: the south, the north, Europe, wherever. I'm in no way denying that fundyism and intolerance are prevalent in the south(mostly just because of the higher percentage of rural country), just felt that I should provide my experiences as a counter example.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: zamboniavenger ]</p>

Chuck

There are parts of the south that are wonderfully metropolitan that I truly love. Charlotte. RTP (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill + Cary) (Cary = Containment Area for Relocated Yankees ) Atlanta. Charleston, to a degree. Even my stomping grounds, l'il ol' Greensboro. Asheville is one of my favorite cities in the US.

In my experience, however, these cities are the exception rather than the rule. Our list grows shorter as we venture into the deep south. Alabama. Mississippi.

The only thing in your post that I disagree with is the assertion that "rural" means the same thing in the American South that it does everywhere else. I grew up in the rural south. I have traveled in rural North. I have traveled in rural Europe. The two concepts are not equivalent. In the south, "rural" encapsulates a wider range of definitions, including religious, political and ideological matters. It is in this environment that the culture of violence that I've previously discussed flourishes.

Chuck

RufusAtticus

Zamboniavenger,

You fit the stereotype of a Atlanta kid. Rural Georgia is not backwoods or even that backwards. You should get out of Atlanta and Athens and actually spend time with people from a different background than you.

I'm sorry, but I just have a pet peave about people from Atlanta that are out of touch with the rest of the state. It's the same kind of problem I have with Yankees who have no clue about the South.

-RvFvS

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: RufusAtticus ]</p>

Godless Dave

I'm glad the last few people posted. Of course we're talking about the religious culture of a region, not making blanket statements about all of southern culture, all southerners, all farmers, all northerners, etc. My musician friends love Athens, GA, and cream their jeans over Austin, TX (I know, not part of the old South). And of course there are cool places and cool people everywhere.

I should mention that rural Minnesota has some serious hard-core fundies too.

zamboniavenger

Chuck,
Fair enough, consider me educated.

Rufus,
Your right, I apologize. I made a blanket statement when the point of my post was to not make blanket statements. Although I would like to point out I said only backwoods, not backwards. I didn't mean that.

Dave,
I really wasn't accusing anybody, just trying to add perspective.

sighhswolf

Yes for sure we must not forget that some of the nations finest universities and research facilities are located in North Carolina.
The research triangle, the University of N.C.,
Duke university, Wake Forest, N.C. State is one of the top agri/ecosystem schools in the entire nation along with Clemson in SC.
Charlotte has surpassed many other larger cities to become a center of finance and banking with many large financial organizations and the nations largest banks with corp. headquarters here.
The cultural mix of the population of the Charlotte area is more diverse than most of the New England states now.
After living in South Boston and traveling all over New England, I can say that in the Charlotte area and in the research triangle area of NC, the
"southern redneck" "good ol boy" "gun totin"
stereotype is almost a thing of the past, and the
influx of a diverse cultural population migrating
into the are from the northern and western states has pretty much diluted that stereotype into non-existence in the metro area.
But, outside of the major population centers, the good ol boy mentality is still very strong, and something I have personally fought very hard to dispell everywhere I have lived outside of the south.
Most of the southerners I know are for the most part transplants to the area, industry is strong, the job market is healthy, unemployment low, the tax base makes the area very attractive to all different kinds of businesses, and the years of nothing but "lent-head" work are for the most part over.
So the overall image of the south that many people who have not lived here have is usually wrong and they find that out after being here a while.

But the question was about the oppressive nature of southern evangelism and religion, and one fact
that hasnt been brought up is the effect of the
traveling evangelist.
The tent meetings were always a very large draw in the rural areas, and this holds true whether it is the south or the midwest.
That revivalistic type of traveling evangelism
is very much akin to the circus to be truthful, and is a staple of deep south culture.
People like Billy Graham, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim and Tammy Baker, Jerry Falwell......the list goes on and on, have perpetuated that type of evangelism.
And on a more realistic side it seems that there are more "CON MEN" down here hoping to fleece the poor old dumb southeners of some hard earned cash.
It amazes me that these folks deceive, steal, and ruin other people lives...but the people down here just keep going back for more.

Anyway I need to clear up something here, because
I dont agree with either the politics or the religious inclinations of this area, does not mean this is not a good place to raise a family,
if you can make sure that your kids have the benefit of reasoning and rational thought so that they make decisions based on what they believe, not what someone else "wants" them to believe, it's a pretty good place live.

I guess any place you travel in this country has it's own set of unfavorable attributes.
Wolf

zamboniavenger

Yeah, what he said. Seriously though, that was the point I was trying to make, if a little less eloquently.

[ April 16, 2002: Message edited by: zamboniavenger ]</p>

southernhybrid

I was going to post a long rant about the positives of living in the South, my adopted home since 1971 but I'll spare ya'll and just say this. While I'm not an in your face atheist, I am openly atheist whenever I'm asked about my religion. As to date, my 31 years in the South ( and I'm a former "Yankee" so I have two strikes against me ) have left me without any cross burnings, threatening letters, religous tracts in my mailbox, or attempts at converting me. At the very worst, I have been prayed for or teased in a good natured way. It has been my experience in life for the most part, that if you treat people with fear and suspicion, they will treat you the same way. I've been around for more than a half a century and work in a people centered profession so that statement is based on extensive experience interacting with an extremely diverse clientele.

Think about it. Some of you have made the same kind of gross generalizations about Xian Southerners, that some Xians make about atheists. Shouldn't we be a bit more open minded than that? Is it anymore acceptable to be an atheist bigot than a Xian bigot?

( Yes, those are rhetorical questions )

[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: southernhybrid ]</p>

Pangea

Just wanted to revisit and say that I love NC and the south in general. I have lived here my whole life and I will never leave. I didn't want ya'll to get the impression that I was bashing although the guy I described in my first post is a pretty common sight, lol.

Anyway, yes, there are some folks down here that do hold that 'good ol boy' standard and yes there are more than enough small minded people around. But, I think that as each successive generation takes control from the previous one, things are getting a little better (I mean like tolerance issues only). We will always have the little kkk/wn/ws movements hidden amongst us but I do have confidence that as more time goes by, things will get better. The religion down here may not ever change, though (those xtians are a stubborn bunch).

[aside]You guys seen the commercial where the southerner goes into the Yankee bar and the bartender says, how ya doin? And he goes, "Just fine, just got in today, my brother in law picked me up at the airport, mighty big airport ya got," and the bartender looks at him like he is crazy. My yankee friend and I were talking about it and decided that commercial sums up the difference between the north and the south quite nicely. He says people don't do that where he's from and down here, he can't get people to shut up. He says everybody is so nice and always wants to know how you are. I thought it was funny.

I don't think anything could ever compare to my youth here. My childhood was spent picking wild muscadines and scuppernongs with my father and fermenting grape wine in the cellar. Walking the fence with my father when our cattle got loose. Catching crawfish in the stream that fed our well. Planting season, harvesting season. Trading produce with neighbors. Picking the season's first watermelon and dropping it in the well for a few hours. In ground pig pickin's at my uncle Glen's house. Ah the good old days.

As they say, it's all good in the hood.