Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 07-13-2002, 02:54 AM

You are right that Crossan's Jesus did not seem to be ridiculously far ahead of his time with a concern for social justice. Child labor, hereditary kingship, and pollution do not come into question. But that does not mean that Crossan's Jesus was unconcerned for social justice as he understood it.

There's nothing ridiculous about anything I noted, except perhaps pollution. The ancients wrote and thought about all of those things.

I agree with you about Crossan's Jesus. Thanks for taking a moment to write.

Vorkosigan

Vorkosigan · 07-13-2002, 04:14 AM

<a href="http://faith.propadeutic.com/authors/apologetics.html" target="_blank">This site</a> says William Lane Craig is a Dispensationalist. That would almost certainly make him a literalist, since Dispensationalists argue for the literal plain sense of the text as the primary way to interpret it. He graduated from Trinity, which emphasizes inerrancy, according to its mission statement. That alone would not make Craig an inerrantist, of course. Still it is indicative, since later he was a Prof of Religion there, which indicates that he must have adhered to their views....

But, in the <a href="http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-pigliucci3.html" target="_blank">debate with Pugliacci</a> Craig admits:

"(5) The fifth argument he raised was the problem of Noah's Ark. I would simply just dismiss this by saying: First, it doesn't disprove the existence of God. Secondly, I would take Noah's flood to be a local flood, not a universal flood, in any case."

Interesting.

Vorkosigan

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]

King Arthur · 07-13-2002, 06:00 AM

Quote:

Are you for real? Or are you pretending to be an atheist so you can set a negative example for theists who wander through here? Nothing you say rings true.

Yes, Toto and Vorkosigan, I'm for real. I can't help it if you think I'm some sort of charicature.

Nothing I say rings true for you, but it is all too real to me. Perhaps you two are affluent like the atheist I knew. It's funny, he always tells me, "Don't worry about life, your job, or anything, just be happy." Meanwhile, he is sitting back living off of his wife's salary. I think I could be happy too.

Believe it or not guys, some don't think their newly found atheism is so great. They see the logical points, but dispise the results.

Vorkosigan · 07-13-2002, 06:39 AM

Yes, Toto and Vorkosigan, I'm for real. I can't help it if you think I'm some sort of charicature.

Nothing I say rings true for you, but it is all too real to me. Perhaps you two are affluent like the atheist I knew. It's funny, he always tells me, "Don't worry about life, your job, or anything, just be happy." Meanwhile, he is sitting back living off of his wife's salary. I think I could be happy too.

Perhaps we're just two ordinary Joes who happen to be atheists. What is this segue here into the guy who lives off his wife? Is this some sort of oblique comment about Toto and I?

Believe it or not guys, some don't think their newly found atheism is so great. They see the logical points, but dispise the results.

Lots of atheists feel that way, especially right after they deconvert. Try reading the <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000020&p=" target="_blank">Atheist's Testimony Thread</a> for many with experiences like this. You can leave your own story there if you like.

This thread on loss is also current:
<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000439" target="_blank">Loss was easier with God</a>

Vorkosigan

Toto · 07-13-2002, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by King Arthur:


Yes, Toto and Vorkosigan, I'm for real. I can't help it if you think I'm some sort of charicature.

Nothing I say rings true for you, but it is all too real to me. Perhaps you two are affluent like the atheist I knew. It's funny, he always tells me, "Don't worry about life, your job, or anything, just be happy." Meanwhile, he is sitting back living off of his wife's salary. I think I could be happy too.

Believe it or not guys, some don't think their newly found atheism is so great. They see the logical points, but dispise the results.

"Don't Worry Be Happy" is not an atheist slogan. It derives from one of those Indian gurus - Meher Baba, I think.

I work for a living as a computer type. Religion has had nothing to do with making a living for me. If I were selling Bibles, or even real estate, it might be different. Did you give up economic opportunities that you have not reconciled yourself to? Maybe you should write up your deconversion experience so we can understand you better.

Berean · 07-13-2002, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by peterkirby:
Berean, dollars to donuts that Doherty will give you a free signed copy of his book if you promise to publish (in print or online) a book review. That's what he did for me.

Heck, I'll put your review on the front page of Early Christian Writings for at least a month. And you can tell that to Earl.

best,
Peter Kirby

Really? That could be fun, although I don't have any academic credentials to lend weight to it. How do I contact him?

Peter Kirby · 07-13-2002, 11:29 AM

Berean, I don't have any academic credentials either (thought that could change). But... if Doherty oddly refuses and you think you could do a good job, then I'll buy the book for you.

Send your e-mail to oblio@ca.inter.net and EarlDoherty@hotmail.com.

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby · 07-30-2002, 07:31 PM

Berean writes: Really? That could be fun, although I don't have any academic credentials to lend weight to it. How do I contact him?

Have you contacted Doherty? What did he say?

best,
Peter Kirby

Steven Carr · 07-31-2002, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Berean:


Carrier makes much of his knowledge of Greek, and his CV certainly bears this out, but he seems to rely far too much on strict grammatical analysis as opposed to evident contextual meaning. Consequently his defense of Doherty's loopy "Sublunar Incarnation Theory" based on kata sarka is silly. He is quite correct in saying the literal translation is "down through flesh" but apparently fails to realize (and, so I assume, does Doherty) that the two uses of this phrase with reference to Christ refer to his genealogical link to David. "Down" thus describes a figurative motion through time, not a literal motion. Kata sarka is used five other times in the NT, all referring to humans, once of Paul's membership in the Jewish race, twice of slaves' physical bond to their masters, and twice with the figurative "sinful nature" sense of sarx]. The idea of some mythical heavenly incarnation is not supported. If this is the cornerstone of Doherty's case, then it is weak at best.

Why does it matter than when Paul uses 'kata sarka' about himself, he is not implying that he exists in some other realm?

And Paul saying Jesus was descended from David does not rule out saying Jesus existed in some other realm. It does not support it either. Support for the idea comes from other places.

Quote:

In v Carrier completely ignores the fact that all five other instances in the NT of ek deuterou plainly mean "a second time".

Carrier writes 'Though the phrase can (and frequently does) mean "for a second time,"..., so how is he completely ignoring it? Surely he has taken that into account.

I do find it curious that the only definite historical reference by Paul to Jesus places Jesus in the Exodus.

07-13-2002, 04:14 AM	#32
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	<a href="http://faith.propadeutic.com/authors/apologetics.html" target="_blank">This site</a> says William Lane Craig is a Dispensationalist. That would almost certainly make him a literalist, since Dispensationalists argue for the literal plain sense of the text as the primary way to interpret it. He graduated from Trinity, which emphasizes inerrancy, according to its mission statement. That alone would not make Craig an inerrantist, of course. Still it is indicative, since later he was a Prof of Religion there, which indicates that he must have adhered to their views.... But, in the <a href="http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-pigliucci3.html" target="_blank">debate with Pugliacci</a> Craig admits: "(5) The fifth argument he raised was the problem of Noah's Ark. I would simply just dismiss this by saying: First, it doesn't disprove the existence of God. Secondly, I would take Noah's flood to be a local flood, not a universal flood, in any case." Interesting. Vorkosigan [ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

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07-13-2002, 02:54 AM	#31
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	You are right that Crossan's Jesus did not seem to be ridiculously far ahead of his time with a concern for social justice. Child labor, hereditary kingship, and pollution do not come into question. But that does not mean that Crossan's Jesus was unconcerned for social justice as he understood it. There's nothing ridiculous about anything I noted, except perhaps pollution. The ancients wrote and thought about all of those things. I agree with you about Crossan's Jesus. Thanks for taking a moment to write. Vorkosigan

07-13-2002, 06:39 AM	#34
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Yes, Toto and Vorkosigan, I'm for real. I can't help it if you think I'm some sort of charicature. Nothing I say rings true for you, but it is all too real to me. Perhaps you two are affluent like the atheist I knew. It's funny, he always tells me, "Don't worry about life, your job, or anything, just be happy." Meanwhile, he is sitting back living off of his wife's salary. I think I could be happy too. Perhaps we're just two ordinary Joes who happen to be atheists. What is this segue here into the guy who lives off his wife? Is this some sort of oblique comment about Toto and I? Believe it or not guys, some don't think their newly found atheism is so great. They see the logical points, but dispise the results. Lots of atheists feel that way, especially right after they deconvert. Try reading the <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000020&p=" target="_blank">Atheist's Testimony Thread</a> for many with experiences like this. You can leave your own story there if you like. This thread on loss is also current: <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000439" target="_blank">Loss was easier with God</a> Vorkosigan

07-13-2002, 11:29 AM	#37
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Berean, I don't have any academic credentials either (thought that could change). But... if Doherty oddly refuses and you think you could do a good job, then I'll buy the book for you. Send your e-mail to oblio@ca.inter.net and EarlDoherty@hotmail.com. best, Peter Kirby

07-30-2002, 07:31 PM	#38
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Berean writes: Really? That could be fun, although I don't have any academic credentials to lend weight to it. How do I contact him? Have you contacted Doherty? What did he say? best, Peter Kirby

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