Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ruy Lopez · 04-21-2002, 11:57 AM

Looks like very good work SmashingIdol. Is there a formal discipline for the study of myths? What is it called? Can you suggest website?

Thank you

Tony

Marduk · 04-21-2002, 02:50 PM

Check Amazon.com books by Joseph Cambell
A Hero with a thousand faces, the power of mythos.
or search Mythology.

SmashingIdols · 04-21-2002, 05:10 PM

Good books. I would also recommend:

Joseph Campbell - The Masks of God
David Ulansey - Origin of the Mithraic Mysteries

The solar information was arrived at due to continued study and reflection upon the bible and other solar cults. I have a theory regarding the actual astronomical event that led to the erroneous expectation that a savior had been born and crucified, but that will have to wait until I have more supporting data. I will however state here and now that the ancients believed the sky overhead was heaven. Literally.

As an interesting punctuation to my synopsis stated above, a close look at Passover suggests it is also a solar tradition.

The sun was seen as going south (the sojourn in Egypt by Israel), and then returning exactly at spring - when the sun has returned in strengh, in other words the days are finally longer than the nights again. To the visible eye the sun seems to travel south as well (if you live in the Northern hemisphere).

It is my expectation that Israel never sojourned to Egypt - and that Jesus was mythologized to have made the same journey due to the solar nature of the religion. They are both representative of Sol - the sun.

As further support of this was the Israel looting of Egypt's treasures - consider that Egypt was an overtly solar cult, the king representing the incarnation of the sun on earth.

But that's a different thread...

04-21-2002, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:

The three days is merely a factual astronomical observation by people all over the world.

The above is true but the reason why the "no sun" and "no night" are celebrated in many mythologies is because they best describe the metaphysics of rebirth with "no sun" and ascention with "no night." Northrup Frye in "the Great Code" holds that to arrive at "extasy" (no night) we must journey though "parody" (no sun). See also Rev.22:5, "no night."

Here's a poem that describes this best.

The sweatest rest is at even,
After a wearisome day
When the heavy burden of labor
Has born from our hearts away;
And those who have never known sorrow
Cannot know the infinite peace
That falls on the troubles spirit
When it sees at last release.

We must live through the dreary winter
It we would value the spring;
And the woods must be cold and silent
before the robins sing.
The flowers must be burried in darkness
before they can bud and bloom,
And the sweetest, warmest sunshine
Comes after the storm and gloom.

These celebrations are not just astronomical observations but they are symbolic for real life events and the darkest day in a persons life does not have to be Dec.25. Yet, we will recognize such parody if it is followed by the sweetest warmest sunshine we have ever known.

SmashingIdols · 04-21-2002, 08:41 PM

They are astronomical observations - as far as the "so-called factual religious events," are you willing to say that every religion of the world that celebrates Decemeber 25th as the birth of their savior is true?

If not, then based upon what criteria is one considered a solar cult, and not the other? I would bet that whatever your religion is would not be a solar cult.

I find it ironic that people would then say these astronomical events happen in the world to illuminate God's scripture! I actually heard this once - "God designed his creation to tell the story of Jesus." Same tune probably was once sung for Quetzequatel.

But these astronomical cycles predate any intelligent life, and at the very minimum any written record, be it biblical or historical. Yet people will deny that their religion, in the complete lack of any other evidence, is in any way influenced or based upon these natural billion year old cycles.

In a nutshell:

Evidence of God - None. Requires faith alone.

Evidence of Astronomical Influence - Amazing synchronicity with religious doctrine, hard evidence cycles have existed for at least a billion years (predating most everything but slime matts, and in fact the lunar cycle could be almost as old as the earth). The tilt of the earth's pole is almost a direct match for most mythology.

Isn't it funny how the modern "myth" or urban legend we teach our children is that Santa Claus lives at the north pole? Strip off his beard, and have a really close look at ...Mithras - right down to the pointy hat, red suit trimmed with white fur, and surrounded by little guys dressed in green. Incidentally, he was referred to as the Polar god - it was assumed he stirred the heavens with a great stick. He was also called Sol Invictus "The unconquered Sun," and born on December 25th, in a grotto, surrounded by shepherds and their beasts. His sacrificial meal was enjoined in to provide eternal life to the faithful. And if you have ever been to Europe, you may be shocked to know that most old cathedrals were built right on top of his Mithraeums.

The biblical usage of these events and timings is in no way original or unique.

SmashingIdols · 04-21-2002, 08:51 PM

Whoops - forgot the tie in there with Mithras, why I brought it up:

He was considered by his worshippers (most of the Roman empire at one point), to be the reason the heavens were stirred.

Now a really good facsimile of him exists at the North Pole (in legeng at least), which happens to be located a bit closer to the real cause of all this shortening and lengthening of days - the tilt of the axis of the earth. He has been moved to almost the exact location of everything the solar cult was based upon.

Funny that he now has a beard - maybe this is symbolic of how our understanding of the phenomena has matured.

Bad news for Christians is he was a prototype for the Jesus story. His center of worship, the very hotbed of Mithraism, was Tarsus in Greece. Paul's home town...

Marduk · 04-22-2002, 02:51 PM

Smashingidols pointed out:
"The resurrection was the day immediately following this period, where the day became longer again, in other words "The new sun was born." For this reason nearly every religion of this lattitude selected December 25th as the birth of the Savior - Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Mithras; all of them share the same birth date. All of these saviors are in peril however - because the night is still longer than the newborn day, which was seen as fragile. Not until spring would the day be triumphant, that is to say "longer" than the night."

True, but the original cult members had no Easter or Dec. 25 as the birth of Jesus, this is all 4th Century mumbo jumbo "let's keep the people happy who have celebrated winter/spring festivals for hundreds of years"
and while we are doing poetry Amos, how about this one:

Thou hast heard with thine ears and thou hast seen with thine eyes
Millions of years have gone over the world
I cannot tell the number of them through which thou hast passed
Thy heart hath decreed a day of happiness in thy name
Thou dost pass over and travellest through untold spaces of millions and hundreds of thousands of years
Thou steerest thy way across the watery abyss to the place which thou lovest
This thou doest in one little moment of time, and thou dust sink down and markest an end of the hours

From “A Hymn of Praise to Ra After He Rises in the Eastern part of Heaven” Egyptian Book of the Dead 2500 BCE or more.

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]

04-22-2002, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:
They are astronomical observations - as far as the "so-called factual religious events," are you willing to say that every religion of the world that celebrates Decemeber 25th as the birth of their savior is true? 

The birth of a savior is never a physical birth because a savior is always born unto a human being. Dec.25 best describes the natural conditions that surround such an event. Significant here is the shape of the numbers 2 and 5 and also the proximity to New Year (new creation).

If not, then based upon what criteria is one considered a solar cult, and not the other? I would bet that whatever your religion is would not be a solar cult. 

All that is required to make Judaism a solar cult is one parable with regard to the origin of Love. In the end God is the same in every religion: Man is God and needs to come to this realization for himself for this to be true. The description of God may be different and also the the way to achieve this end. Religion, all religions, including cults and occults should have this in mind and serve the general public, or tribe, as a vehicle to achieve this end. I understand that many don't but that is not the point here. 

I find it ironic that people would then say these astronomical events happen in the world to illuminate God's scripture! I actually heard this once - "God designed his creation to tell the story of Jesus." Same tune probably was once sung for Quetzequatel.

The reason why they are tied to astronimical events is because we respond to natural events. We are part of nature and supernatural things are only supernatural because we humans are oblivious to the true nature of man. In other words, in heaven the supernatural is gone (Rev.21:1 "the [celestial] sea was no longer" just as in Buddhism the soul was no more "anatta" or "nairatmya." As humans we are social animals and must be herded to maintian our existance because the faculty of reason is the cause of chaos (for good reason but nevertheless called satan in the bible). The mythology is for the survival and prosperity of the tribe (Antho 101)

But these astronomical cycles predate any intelligent life, and at the very minimum any written record, be it biblical or historical. Yet people will deny that their religion, in the complete lack of any other evidence, is in any way influenced or based upon these natural billion year old cycles.

Probabble by billions of years but that means nothing. Our mythology is about 6000 years old and is when heaven was placed opposite to earth by the mythmakers of those days for the benefit of the tribe. 

In a nutshell:

Evidence of God - None. Requires faith alone.

Or ignorance to deny the influence of your own subconscious mind. 

snip

Isn't it funny how the modern "myth" or urban legend we teach our children is that Santa Claus lives at the north pole? The biblical usage of these events and timings is in no way original or unique.

Santa Claus is for children what Mithras is for adults. Both require faith seeking understanding. The same is true with St. Nicholas (who is not from the north pole) and if you have ever been to Europe you may have noticed that the arrival of this saint very much symbolizes the second coming of Christ. Here again St. Nicholas forshadows the second coming of Christ in the life of adults and requires understanding to be annihilated.

04-22-2002, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
Smashingidols pointed out:
"The resurrection was the day immediately following this period, where the day became longer again, in other words "The new sun was born." For this reason nearly every religion of this lattitude selected December 25th as the birth of the Savior - Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Mithras; all of them share the same birth date. All of these saviors are in peril however - because the night is still longer than the newborn day, which was seen as fragile. Not until spring would the day be triumphant, that is to say "longer" than the night."

Nice poem marduck and as you can see, not much has changed in the last 10,000 years. I have a Buddhist poem that is older (I think) and more primitive, but very explosive. It proves purgatory and Mary (River Merchant's wife) as the one to meet us there and lead us into heaven. It is called "A River Merchant Wife: A Letter" translated by Pound.

The reason why Smashingidols is wrong is because the purgation period takes place between "no sun" (birth of the savior at Christmas) and "no night" (assention of the savior at Easter. My objection here is that Passover is equal to Christmas and not Easter because if the firstborn is spared and led "into the promised land" to just die there is certainly not the same as to have Easter follow the event. The matzah (unleavened bread) symbolizes the end to the "rising action" (sin) in wait for the crisis moment . . . which for the children of Isreal never came, hence they died and the reason for this is made clear in Jn.6.

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

SmashingIdols · 04-22-2002, 09:08 PM

Amos,

I would respond to your post if I could but understand what it is you are saying. I have seen you post throughout this forum, and am yet to assemble your words and sentences into something that translates meaning in my mind. The words are definitely in english, and the sentences seem to be properly structured; nevertheless, the points you are trying to convey totally escape me.

You mentioned something about my solar alignment being wrong concerning Israel and Jesus. If I could understand exactly what you are referring to I would be glad to discuss it - I am here for improvement.

I was surprised that you do not interpret passover as a spring ritual - that is exactly the time it is celebrated. That is the most I could understand, the River of Mary and Purgation Periods were nonsensical.

As it stands, I can only interpret your words as clever christian obfuscation. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, however, so could you make an attempt at linear contextualized thought?

04-22-2002, 02:51 PM	#27
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Smashingidols pointed out: "The resurrection was the day immediately following this period, where the day became longer again, in other words "The new sun was born." For this reason nearly every religion of this lattitude selected December 25th as the birth of the Savior - Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Horus, Mithras; all of them share the same birth date. All of these saviors are in peril however - because the night is still longer than the newborn day, which was seen as fragile. Not until spring would the day be triumphant, that is to say "longer" than the night." True, but the original cult members had no Easter or Dec. 25 as the birth of Jesus, this is all 4th Century mumbo jumbo "let's keep the people happy who have celebrated winter/spring festivals for hundreds of years" and while we are doing poetry Amos, how about this one: Thou hast heard with thine ears and thou hast seen with thine eyes Millions of years have gone over the world I cannot tell the number of them through which thou hast passed Thy heart hath decreed a day of happiness in thy name Thou dost pass over and travellest through untold spaces of millions and hundreds of thousands of years Thou steerest thy way across the watery abyss to the place which thou lovest This thou doest in one little moment of time, and thou dust sink down and markest an end of the hours From “A Hymn of Praise to Ra After He Rises in the Eastern part of Heaven” Egyptian Book of the Dead 2500 BCE or more. [ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

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04-21-2002, 11:57 AM	#21
Ruy Lopez Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Manila Posts: 5,516	Looks like very good work SmashingIdol. Is there a formal discipline for the study of myths? What is it called? Can you suggest website? Thank you Tony

04-21-2002, 02:50 PM	#22
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	Check Amazon.com books by Joseph Cambell A Hero with a thousand faces, the power of mythos. or search Mythology.

04-21-2002, 05:10 PM	#23
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Good books. I would also recommend: Joseph Campbell - The Masks of God David Ulansey - Origin of the Mithraic Mysteries The solar information was arrived at due to continued study and reflection upon the bible and other solar cults. I have a theory regarding the actual astronomical event that led to the erroneous expectation that a savior had been born and crucified, but that will have to wait until I have more supporting data. I will however state here and now that the ancients believed the sky overhead was heaven. Literally. As an interesting punctuation to my synopsis stated above, a close look at Passover suggests it is also a solar tradition. The sun was seen as going south (the sojourn in Egypt by Israel), and then returning exactly at spring - when the sun has returned in strengh, in other words the days are finally longer than the nights again. To the visible eye the sun seems to travel south as well (if you live in the Northern hemisphere). It is my expectation that Israel never sojourned to Egypt - and that Jesus was mythologized to have made the same journey due to the solar nature of the religion. They are both representative of Sol - the sun. As further support of this was the Israel looting of Egypt's treasures - consider that Egypt was an overtly solar cult, the king representing the incarnation of the sun on earth. But that's a different thread...

04-21-2002, 08:41 PM	#25
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	They are astronomical observations - as far as the "so-called factual religious events," are you willing to say that every religion of the world that celebrates Decemeber 25th as the birth of their savior is true? If not, then based upon what criteria is one considered a solar cult, and not the other? I would bet that whatever your religion is would not be a solar cult. I find it ironic that people would then say these astronomical events happen in the world to illuminate God's scripture! I actually heard this once - "God designed his creation to tell the story of Jesus." Same tune probably was once sung for Quetzequatel. But these astronomical cycles predate any intelligent life, and at the very minimum any written record, be it biblical or historical. Yet people will deny that their religion, in the complete lack of any other evidence, is in any way influenced or based upon these natural billion year old cycles. In a nutshell: Evidence of God - None. Requires faith alone. Evidence of Astronomical Influence - Amazing synchronicity with religious doctrine, hard evidence cycles have existed for at least a billion years (predating most everything but slime matts, and in fact the lunar cycle could be almost as old as the earth). The tilt of the earth's pole is almost a direct match for most mythology. Isn't it funny how the modern "myth" or urban legend we teach our children is that Santa Claus lives at the north pole? Strip off his beard, and have a really close look at ...Mithras - right down to the pointy hat, red suit trimmed with white fur, and surrounded by little guys dressed in green. Incidentally, he was referred to as the Polar god - it was assumed he stirred the heavens with a great stick. He was also called Sol Invictus "The unconquered Sun," and born on December 25th, in a grotto, surrounded by shepherds and their beasts. His sacrificial meal was enjoined in to provide eternal life to the faithful. And if you have ever been to Europe, you may be shocked to know that most old cathedrals were built right on top of his Mithraeums. The biblical usage of these events and timings is in no way original or unique.

04-21-2002, 08:51 PM	#26
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Whoops - forgot the tie in there with Mithras, why I brought it up: He was considered by his worshippers (most of the Roman empire at one point), to be the reason the heavens were stirred. Now a really good facsimile of him exists at the North Pole (in legeng at least), which happens to be located a bit closer to the real cause of all this shortening and lengthening of days - the tilt of the axis of the earth. He has been moved to almost the exact location of everything the solar cult was based upon. Funny that he now has a beard - maybe this is symbolic of how our understanding of the phenomena has matured. Bad news for Christians is he was a prototype for the Jesus story. His center of worship, the very hotbed of Mithraism, was Tarsus in Greece. Paul's home town...

04-22-2002, 09:08 PM	#30
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Amos, I would respond to your post if I could but understand what it is you are saying. I have seen you post throughout this forum, and am yet to assemble your words and sentences into something that translates meaning in my mind. The words are definitely in english, and the sentences seem to be properly structured; nevertheless, the points you are trying to convey totally escape me. You mentioned something about my solar alignment being wrong concerning Israel and Jesus. If I could understand exactly what you are referring to I would be glad to discuss it - I am here for improvement. I was surprised that you do not interpret passover as a spring ritual - that is exactly the time it is celebrated. That is the most I could understand, the River of Mary and Purgation Periods were nonsensical. As it stands, I can only interpret your words as clever christian obfuscation. I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, however, so could you make an attempt at linear contextualized thought?

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