Eudaimonist

Indeed.

telemachus

I've been reading R. Buckminster Fuller recently and i noticed a remark in support of what i posted previously. For anyone interested, here it is, from "Critical Path":

I note that this is the same as was claimed by Gurdjieff, albeit in a more colourful manner.

What do members who are following me make of this?

Eudaimonist

telemachus, that quote sounds like a verbose way of saying that intellect is an improvement on inherited behaviors by finding order in complexity. It's certainly quicker than waiting for evolution to create new behaviors.

As it pertains to "metaphysics", I suppose this is one of the appeals of religion; we need order to feel comfortable, and people will seek and create order where none truly exists in order to satisfy that need.

telemachus

Eudaimonia wrote:
Not quite. There's a little more to it.

Fuller seems to have been suggesting that the Universe is using us to avoid or counteract its own increase in entropy, called the "merciless Heropass" by Gurdjieff. Thus, life appears to be implicitly purposive.

I realise this all may seem strange at first reading, but that's why it's in this forum. If you're interested, take a look at my previous posts. For example:
I'm not sticking to this opinion come hell or high water, but i'd like to talk it out...

Bluenose

Bluenose: If religion is "the institution of purpose" [old sociology class definition] and "institutions" are cultural inventions [anthropology class] are we talking about "metephysics/philosophy" or social "history" ?????

Bluenose

Bluenose:..."I'm back"....(1) When you say Fuller seems to say "the Universe" is "using us" ....are you implying the Universe has purpose, or even "knows" life is here on this small 'third rock' from the sun, in an inconspicuous galaxy, part of ordinary 'local group' in an average cluster ????? (2) When you use the word hell.... should we derive any "metaphysical" implication or merely call it poetic phrase ???.........just kidding........(3).........The real question is: should we adopt the purpose of slowing, stoping, or reversing entropy OR put our minds to the task of using entropy for our own ends???
(4) Is the 'WEB'/information revolution a taste of future ways we will find to defeat the effects of entropy ?? [Good post as usual, thanks telemachus, you keep us thinking]

Eudaimonist

telemachus wrote: Fuller seems to have been suggesting that the Universe is using us to avoid or counteract its own increase in entropy

Eh... um... riiight...

How big is the Universe? Can our negentropy even compare to the entropy of the Universe as a whole?

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Eudaimonia ]

telemachus

Eudaimonia wrote:
I don't know. Do you? I'd guess at infinite.

I don't know. Do you?

You'll pardon my poor attempt to explain in layman's terms what Fuller was suggesting...

The reason i noticed that quote and found it interesting was because it suggests that life is purposive, but not in the sense generally understood by theists and atheists alike. I'm not saying it is, but as long as the mathematics i wrote of stands irrefuted i'm not going to conclude that it isn't.

Okay?

Bluenose wrote:
Yes. Or maybe not. Implicitly, at least.

I think that would depend on how you understand "knows".

For the benefit of others: i'm just joking.

Either/or? Why not both?

Well - unless anyone can refute Arnold's math - as information spreads and there are life-forms able to sort it, order will "take over". So long entropy!

**********

(Edited to add: Perhaps the idea Fuller was getting at was symbolised in former times by the conflict between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman? Just a suggestion...)

[ September 19, 2001: Message edited by: telemachus ]

Bluenose

Eudaimonia asked: "How big is the Universe?" IF THE HUBBLE AGE [THE RECIPROCAL OF THE HUBBLE CONSTANT} IS PRESENTLY ABOUT 15 GYO, AND K=0, AND THE HUBBLE CONSTANT IS ASSUMED NOT TO HAVE VARIED SINCE THE 'EARLY UNIVERSE' INFLATED, then THE PRESENT OBSERVABLE UNIVERSE OF EMR EMITTING MATTER + THE DARK MATTER + THE MISSING MASS COULD BE HYPOTHESIZED TO BE A EUCLIDIAN SPHERE WITH R = 15 GLY....HOWEVER, I PREFER THE UPPER LIMIT OF THE ERROR BARS WHICH GAVES AN AGE AND RADIUS OF 18......PLEASE ASK MORE EASY QUESTIONS, AS THOSE ARE THE ONLY ONES I CAN ANSWER.....

Bluenose

re: THE RATIO OF THE ENTROPY OF THE UNIVERSE TO THE NEGENTROPY.............THE REAL PROBLEM WILL NOT BE THE UNIVERSAL COOL DOWN, BUT THE RED GIANT PHASE OF THE SUN WHICH WILL OCCUR IN ONLY ABOUT 4 TO 5 BILLION YEARS ie, WE ARE AT THE HALF WAY POINT OF THE LIFE ON THIS PLANET AND HAVE A LONG TIME TO MOVE OUT TO MARS ( AND BEYOND) TO THE FUTURE TEMPERATE ZONE OF THIS SOLAR SYSTEM...THANKS FOR ANOTHER OF MY KIND OF QUESTION....YOU ALL ARE HELPING REVERSE MY PERSONAL ENTROPY.