Radcliffe Emerson

I may have mis-stated what I read, I was (and am) going from memory too. I think in either the introduction or chapter 1, Finkelstein says the style of writings in the Pentatuech suggests either the Israelites thought of themselves as outsiders, or were outsiders in Canaan.
Of course this would be at the time those books were actually written, which they believe was late 8th/early 7th centuries BC. If I recall correctly, the gradual migration into Canaan was pretty well established at that time.
I don't have the book with me right now to double-check that. I can look that up tonight and post another reply.

Radcliffe Emerson

I fail to see how someone who professes to be an atheist would convert to a unique, somewhat strict religious sytem like Judaism, without having religious reasons, unless he converted to Reformed Judaism. Do you know if Devers is Reformed, Conservative, Orthodox, etc? I definitely cannot see an atheist becoming Conservative or Orthodox without having religious reasons.

PTET

Hmmm...

That rather sounds like he was a theist when he converted to Judasim ;>

Why can't KA just say: "Correction: Dever is an agnostic, not an atheist"?

<a href="http://dreamwater.net/ptet" target="_blank">PTET</a>

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: PTET ]</p>

Skeptical

Isn't Jewish "traditions, lifestyle and philosophy" essentailly identical to Jewish religion? I freely admit I am not an expert on Jewish culture, but I have a close friend who converted to Judaism in order to marry a Jewish woman, and from what he has told me there are a lot of rules and regulations required to convert that all are of a religious nature.

I can see how one can be born into the Jewish race and not be a Jew in the religious sense, but I don't see how one can say one converted to Judaism without necessarily involving the Jewish relgion. To me, claiming to simultaneously be a "converted Jew" and an atheist is nonsensical.

I'm also still curious to know what the basis is of your seemingly strong belief that Dever is superior to Finkelstein.

Peter Kirby

King Arthur writes: A person can be both Jewish and Atheist.

Do you think that a person can be both Christian and atheist? Why or why not?

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto

Christianity is probably the only religion that makes belief in God (and other doctrines) its primary focus. Most other religions or religious traditions define themselves based on a practice, whether of certain rituals, or meditation practices, or ethical standards. So Buddhists can be atheists, but not Christians.

There are a number of people who were raised as Jews who no longer believe in God, but still consider themselves cultural Jews. There are at least two minor branches of Judaism that are openly unbelieving but still practice Jewish rituals and value Jewish culture and morality, and several that define God fairly imprecisely. But if Dever converted to Judaism, I'm sure he didn't tell the Rabbis that he didn't believe in G*d.

Radcliffe Emerson

If he's a Reformed Jew he can claim to be atheist though. They're pretty liberal and I don't think any belief to amount to much is required.
Beliefnet.com says Reformed Judaism's official stance is there is one God, but people of all beliefs, including non-belief are welcomed.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: Radcliffe Emerson ]</p>

Radcliffe Emerson

A note I dug up about the Egyptian influence.

Amenhoteb IV established Aten as the only universal god. Aten was the sun god. Scholars say the Semite belief in one god emerges after Aten is established as the one God in Egypt. Amenhoteb IV is thus credited as the first person to come up with the one god concept, according to scholars.

King Arthur

Straight from Dever in the Forward to his When Did They Know It?

From his own words he sounds like an atheist to me (cf. nominally, not a theist, secular humanist, tradition suits me)... But then, I'm sure the dogmatic atheists here will brand him a closet Christian/Jew as I have been branded.

King Arthur

Bingo! Thank you.