Lord Asriel

This is an interesting idea. If we suppose that stem cell research develops to the point where meat can be grown in a vat (of the same quality as "natural" meat, and fit for human consumption), would I then resume eating meat? (Properly cooked meat, that is. See one of my earlier posts...)

I think I probably would, as cruelty has been taken out of the equation. But I would not make it a staple, rather a weekly treat, as the health arguements against a meat based diet will still apply.

seanie

My eating meat isn't a moral position. It's a moral abdication. I won't kill a wasp (unless it's a mercy killing). I can't go into the back yard when it's raining in case I step on a snail.

However I can continue to eat meat because I successfully disassociate it with the animals it came from.

I'm tolerably comfortable with this self-deception. I'd rather not have my bubble pricked.

Lord Asriel

You do realise that you could just as easily be talking about religion when you say that, don't you?

I'd much prefer it if God existed - it would put an end to all this taking responsibility for my actions bollocks. Everything would be laid out before me and I wouldn't have any of these tricky moral decisions to make.

But I wouldn't be comfortable with that self-deception.

seanie

I'm perfectly aware of the obvious analogy.

However I reserve the right to pick and choose the exact nature of my self-delusion.

I also happen to think I'm smart, funny and good looking.

We all have to indulge in a little evasion from reality from time to time.

[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: seanie ]</p>

Lord Asriel

Amen to that, bro.

And never mind the suffering of those we inflict our smart, funny and good-looking selves on.

seanie

I manage to filter that out too.

Tony99

It's not that I don't like vegans and vegitarians...I just think it's a shame they can't enjoy barbeque like regular folks.

brighid

Articles for Veganism:
<a href="http://www.safe.org.nz/information/issues/print/veganismp.php" target="_blank">http://www.safe.org.nz/information/issues/print/veganismp.php</a>

<a href="http://www.progression.co.uk/talking/phil/veg.html" target="_blank">http://www.progression.co.uk/talking/phil/veg.html</a>

Articles against Veganism:

<a href="http://stanfordreview.org/Archive/Volume_XXV/Issue_7/The_Last_Page/" target="_blank">http://stanfordreview.org/Archive/Volume_XXV/Issue_7/The_Last_Page/</a>

<a href="http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/vegetarianism_myths_02.htm" target="_blank">http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/vegetarianism_myths_02.htm</a>


I have not had the opportunity to look through each site to any large extent, but I thought they presented so basic views on both sides of the issue (at least the common arguments) and therefore provide some food for thought.

Brighid

Rusting Car Bumper

They have selective and arbitrary empathy.

Why do they not have empathy for plants? Why do they not have empathy for the animals that are forced off of "single species land" which is otherwise known as farmland? How about bacteria?

Oh wait! They suggest that we use pain or volition as a criteria for deciding which animals can be killed or used? Then if I was to breed cows or chickens without nerve endings or self-awareness then this would be moral?

Why then won't vegans eat eggs? Don't tell me that its not because of how chickens are kept because if I was to offer an egg where the chicken wasn't kept in horrible conditions they would refuse it still.

How does this "empathy" account for vegans trying to self-righeously turn others into vegans by way of insult rather than facts and reason? How does this "empathy" explain vegan parents who won't breast feed their baby? Obviously these cases cannot be explained by empathy alone.

Essentially I cannot make heads or tails of the ethical arguments given by vegans.

DC

CuriosityKills

I don't have a problem with anyone who eats meat, but I'll tell you why I don' eat it.

1) Animals that are raised for meat don't have the quality of life that wild animals have. Did you know that many animals develope defects just from the fact that they are pent up so close together that thye don't have any room to move or grow? Many will never see a blue sky or have the feeling of green grass under their hoofs/claws.

2)Producers feed their animals with antibiotics and hormones that are passed on through the meat. The doctor advises not to take other people's antibiotics and hormones, why would it be any better for me coming from my meat?

3)Land that is used for grazing cattle for beef could be used to grow grains which would feed many more people than the cows that are grown on that land.

4)Cows produce a crazy amount of methane. This contributes to global warming.

5)I do not feel properly thankful to the animal that just gave its life to feed me. I will eat an animal only if I can kill it and share its suffering. I do not want to kill therefore, I will not eat meat.

6)I really like tofu.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with anyone else eating meat, but I think that if you do you should take some of the above into consideration. Try and get free range meat, organic meat or wild meat when possible. Maybe go hunting if you have the opportunity. If you caught it yourself, you might appreciate it a little more.



[ October 10, 2002: Message edited by: CuriosityKills ]</p>