Koyaanisqatsi

So, you're not a hedonist at all and do not seek pleasure as you initially claimed? You are instead, apparently, simply insecure and want to be accepted by your local majority so you're willing to lie to yourself and to them in order to be accepted in a cult you don't agree with?

I'm even more confused now

Do you not see how "exempting" yourself from this "pain" you speak of as a result of not being part of your local majority will only result in even greater pain? The pain of lying to yourself and to others? And to what end?

Why in the hell would you want to be part of such a childishly simplistic cult to begin with?

If you are indeed a hedonist, then you're joining a cult that abhors hedonism.

Do you mean that you're just lonely because of who you are and are tired of being lonely so you'll pretend to be someone you're not? If so, again I'll ask, how long do you think you can sustain such a lie? A week? A month? A year?

shome42

Ok, first, as I've said, I'm no philosophy scholar, so my definition of hedonism may not be the generally accepted one. I think pleasure is the ultimate end. Pain is the ultimate evil. Anything I can do to maximise pleasure and minimize pain I do. What would you call that? I have no idea. Maybe utilitarianism with an egotistical twist? I thought it was hedonism, but maybe I'm wrong.

"Why in the hell would you want to be part of such a childishly simplistic cult to begin with?"

It's very simple-- because we live in a society in which 90% of people already belong to it. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em...that type of mentality. First, I don't want to be a GENUINE part of the cult. I am only considering ACTING like I'm part of it. That can mean mean either blatantly putting on a facade or subscribing to a waterdown version of Xianity that I find compatable with my own beliefs.

"Do you mean that you're just lonely because of who you are and are tired of being lonely so you'll pretend to be someone you're not? If so, again I'll ask, how long do you think you can sustain such a lie? A week? A month? A year?"

That's not what I mean at all. I'm neither lonely nor unhappy. I have plenty of friends and family. I'm very content with my life. I'm only concerned that my atheism, if publically declared, would limit the pleasure in my life, or at worst, cause pain. That could happen because of the things I've already mentioned: reduced choices of mates, problems with family, problems with work, etc.

If putting up a small lie will make my life much easier, then yes, I think I could keep up that lie for a very long time. When I talk about acting like I'm Xian, I'm not talking about selling all of my stuff and moving to Saudi Arabia to be a missionary; I'm talking about saying I'm Xian if anyone asks and going to church on holidays, that's it.

I'm not saying that lying is a good idea. I'm not saying that I will pretend I'm Xian. I'm just thinking out loud, trying to get feedback. This issue I'm sure applies to many atheists, not just me.

Koyaanisqatsi

In other words, "I believe in Jesus, too" in order to avoid any questions or disparaging looks?

And what happens when you meet someone you really like? A carefull series of lies and misdirection for months or years in order to ween them away from probing your facade?

It would be akin to saying you're a homosexual in order to be accepted in homosexual "circles" (if you will). You certainly could, but what would be the point?

Why not simply remain silent on the issue if you don't have the courage or integrity to be yourself?

shome42

Courage and integrity? I disagree with your categorizing the situation in those terms.

If I find myself at a Republican convention, and I happen to think Bush is the biggest moron to ever live, but I hold my tongue, does that mean I lack courage and integrity???

No. It means that I realize in certain situations it's just not worth it to stir up the waters.

I really don't think saying your Xian when your not is that big of a deal. In the Catholocism I grew up with, you go to church on sunday, that's all. And even if you don't go to church, it's not a big deal. Seriously, it would be a miniscule effort for me to pretend like I'm Xian, at least the type of Xianity I grew up with. It's probably different for fundies.

captainpabst

I understand acting appropriately in certain situations, i.e. not stirring up the waters if there's no reason to. I suppose different strokes for different folks applies here. If you're comfortable wearing the xian facade and you think it benefits you to do so, then go for it. I could never do that, but then again I care about being true to myself more than fitting into what I consider to be a delusional cult that has ensnared FAR too many people. Perhaps you're not trying to fit into the cult so much as deflect it, without alienating the people in it. That's commendable I suppose, but I feel too strongly that Christianity is a crock that I can't pretend otherwise. YMMV.

shome42

Exactly! Thank you for articulating that! It's kind of like cult management.

HelenM

shome42,

I'm confused: are you saying that in order to make your life easier more pleasant, a) you're going to 'pretend to be a Christian' (and so you'd say you believed in God but it wouldn't be true) or b) you're going to convince yourself God exists (so you'd say you believe it and that really would be true of you)?

For what it's worth, I also believe someone can convince themselves of things, including things that aren't true.

So I'm curious what you meant.

You may as well be honest here. I think you'll already see from the responses you've got that not everyone here feels they could pretend to be a Christian, because they see that as a type of dishonesty that they are not willing to engage in.

But there are others here who pretend - or at least, don't point out that they are atheists - to avoid stirring up conflict.

Whether you say you're an atheist or 'lie low' there will be some people here who agree and are doing the same, and others who disagree.

Helen

HelenM

Exactly.

Only you know whether you're refraining from saying something out of fear or whether it's a deliberate choice not to shoot yourself in the foot, as it were.

Helen

beth

I guess I'm just a loud mouthed moron here, but I would voice my opposition. During time when everyone hated the French, I sported the French flag just to piss people off. I am now looking for a Canadian flag. You should stand up for what you believe. My problem is, I don't want to cause others distress, like worrying about my soul; I could care less about who I piss off.

True enough, but you should be true to yourself. I still attend church with my family out of love and support for their beliefs, but I no longer sing in the music ministry and I no longer actively pray for others in the church. I just try to fade in with the scenery. It bothers me tremendously to have to try to pretend that I believe and condone the rubbish that is preached. It probably wouldn't be so bad for me if it was known to all that I am now an unbeliever.


I think you are just trying to justify attending church. I absolutely love going to mass. I love the ceremony and the opulance of the Catholic church. I think that if I had been able to be a Catholic, I would have never deconverted, but I began to see too many problems in the church. Why support a church when it's leaders are not actively trying to protect the smallest and most defenseless of it's parishoners: it's children? The Pope's lack of inititive to protect the kids from the priests absolutely disgusted me. I could never become a Catholic or support that church after Rome made it's decisions.

Koyaanisqatsi

You had initially stated you would lie to yourself and to others in order to fit in; that you would even go so far as to convince yourself that it actually was true ("Once you get to that point, all it takes is some meditation and determination to completely believe your own B.S."), which you then capitulated on by saying, "I think the real issue is whether you should come out or pretend to be Christian."

Thus, both courage and integrity are issues here. I'm not morallizing, I'm just pointing it out, which is why I asked, "Why not just remain silent on the issue...?"

Then you agree with me. You would choose to remain silent.

Then you disagree with yourself in your above analogy.

Let me see if I can clarify your analogy. This is what you should have asked for it to be analogous, "If I find myself at a Republican convention, and I happen to think Bush is the biggest moron to ever live, but I pretend to support him and say that I support him, does that mean I lack courage and integrity?"

See? The answer is, IMO, yes, by the way.

True, but that's a different issue all together. It wouldn't be a "big deal" to anyone around you if you were perpetrating a deliberate fraud just to "not stir up the waters," so long as they never know or find out, of course. You would be the one living the lie in order to fit in.

But it does mean that you lack both the courage and integrity to be yourself; that you'd be lying to the very people you wish would accept you into their reindeer games. Again, I'm not morallizing; just pointing out the facts.

If you think pretending to join a cult is more important than your personal integrity, than by all means, have fun.