Radorth

I think you know the answer Helen, and it is truly grievous to see you post this. But I can see why you remain "popular" here, which is apparently your main goal.

I see, so God should just let people do whatever without any suffering, then not save any of them. Is that what you would call a good God?

1. There is purgatory. Some servants "recieve many stripes."

2. Some are saved, "though as through fire." Will they be sorry do you think?

3. We are capable of more sins and hurting others when still in the flesh.

4. Many will repent when they see the supernatural world for the first time, as we know from the testimony of thousands of people who have had NED's. They do not remain unaffected.

5. God would be irresponsible to prevent people from suffering and learning from their sins. You know this from raising children. It's called "natural consequences" without which the child grows up an idiot.

Now you can answer me a question. What is not scriptural there? Or do you even care?

Rad

Rhea

I try to avoid straw men, I apologize if I seem to have set one up. I am trying to use analogies to show how _I_ perceive things. Not to sway you (I doubt I could do that) but to allow you to glimpse me.

Sorry it seems that way. That's not at all what I mean. I am just making, say 3 broad categories.
- The very worst problems of the world
- Bad problems in the world
- Everyday problems in the world.

I would put Jesus at level 2. I would put people who suffer for YEARS in the top category. I would put Children who suffer in panic up in the top. I might even possibly put someone up there who suffered what Jesus suffered but had no idea why. In short, there are millions and millions of people I would put in the category of "the very worst problems of the world". Jesus isn't one of them, as described by the Bible. Prometheus, now...

I guess you and I just gauge these things differently. I would definitely NOT say that it "easily qualifies". I just can't compare his ordeal to ALL of the others in the world, not just one, but ALL, and say that it's the worst that the world has to offer. Perhaps it's because he had absolutely certain hope of an end to his "suffering" and he knew when.

Christian, let me offer another analogy about whether this is bad "suffering". When I go to the dentist for a filling, I do not get novocaine. I make this choice because the "suffering" under the drill, while extremely painful, is short-lived. And knowing that it will only last 15 or 30 seconds, I simply face it. Yes it's painful, NO it is not suffering. Do you see what I mean? I make this choice because I find novocaine terribly uncomfortable. It's just not worth it to me. The pain is severe, yes, but quick and I can look towards the end. The pain I suffer is no different than the pain suffered by people who are tortured by a dentist's drill. Yet I would NOT say I am "suffering" as much as they are. _I_ am not suffering. Because I know it will end and because it was my choice to do it. Do you see what I mean, and why I can fervently claim that Jesus did NOT suffer such as many humans do/did? Especially not those who suffer years as opposed to his hours/day. Especially not those who did not choose their suffering, nor understand it nor have any purpose to it?

You speculate she would, I speculate she would say, "yeah, my first day was like that, too. Eleven years later I think I can say to you, 'oh shut up and quit your whining' if you start trying to compare your suffering to mine."

~shrug~ That's how it looks from here.

Fair enough. I guess my second asking was rhetorical. I was trying to indicate that this disconnect made things less believable to me and I just can't rest comfortably on the answer you can rest comfortably on.

Thanks for your reply!

Christian

Rimstalker,

Most of what you point out seems to be merely differences in levels of knowledge. The rest occurs after death.

What happens to a physically dead body has nothing to do with the pain and suffering of the dead person.

As for levels of knowledge, I'll freely admit that Jesus knew more than the girl in Rhea's emotional appeal. That also has nothing to do with pain and suffering, though. A two by four across the left cheek hurts just as much when suffered for a good cause as it does when you have no idea why you are suffering.

Plus, Jesus went through the psychological turmoil of facing the wrath of the Father over every sin ever committed. That is quantifyably greater than anyone else will ever experience. Even more so in contrast to the glories that were left behind so that the experience could happen.

Respectfully,

Christian

Rhea

Your example seems to indicate that the constrained "men" know that they are constrained and resent it. There's another choice...

edited to add:

For example, I am constrained by gravity. I do not resent gravity. It just is. The fact that I cannot choose to float does not remove my free will, nor cause me to be a robot nor result in resentment and giving less than my all to the problems that face me. I simply cannot float. That's all. I am constrained. It's okay.

Stephen T-B

"I think you know the answer Helen, and it is truly grievous to see you post this. But I can see why you remain "popular" here, which is apparently your main goal. "

What an extraordinary response to an eminently sensible question!
Your anger, Radoth, derives, I suppose, from a fear and hatred of evil atheists.
It is clear that you come here to do battle for the Lord, and you perceive HelenM as a traitor to the Cause.

The real traitor to the Cause, I suggest, is your intemperance.

HelenM

I'm not organized enough to have a 'main goal' such as that

(Anyway, I've never been popular; I think I've given up on it being 'attainable' )

I was merely pointing out that your statement seemed inconsistent with your theology...

(Who knows, perhaps it will increase my popularity to do so )

The implication of that phrase is that such people will not be sorry - they will be very glad to be saved.

I don't believe NEDs are reliable - I base no beliefs of mine on them.

I believe in using natural consequences - within reason and not without grace, I hope - to teach children.

Not all Christians believe that 'many stripes' verse refers to purgatory.

Do I even care? More than you will probably ever imagine, Rad

(And that wasn't a back-handed comment about the quality of your imagination )

take care
Helen

Christian

Rhea,

I guess I still don't grasp the significance you place on lack of knowledge as a multiplier in suffering. Physical pain simply would not be any different. I would agree that suffering without knowing the cause is a greater injustice, but that is beside your point (I think). I suppose a case could be made that mental anguish is greater when the cause of suffering is unknown .... but again I think that Jesus in suffering the wrath of the Father over all sins (a huge injustice, as is mercy by it's nature) went through greater mental anguish than any other human ever will ... no hyperbole.

Thanks for the genuine communication. I am finding this board interesting.

Respectfully,

Christian

Christian

Rhea,

Granted.

Remove the resentment factor and I'm probably down to a 10 to 5 ratio.

It's a true joy to watch a bunch of motivated soldiers taking initiative and making things happen in the general direction of the vision I've communicated to them. Surely the Big Commander enjoys some of the same types of pleasure (and in a much less crass manner.)

Respectfully,

Christian

Radorth

I'm not angry at all. But I am grieved, and will continue to be I expect.

Eminently sensible? Not for a Christian preaching to others. Not at all.

Rad

Radorth

A truly insightful analogy, and using adult examples. I strongly suspect this was much of "the joy set before" Jesus, and it shows the inestimable value of willing servants as opposed to conscripts.

Rad