crab juice

cleftone, I never thought I'd say this to someone, but I feel sorry for your children. I doubt they'll grow up to be pleasant people with you as a role model.

No wonder people think of new parents as inductees into some kind of cult . And what's with this slur on "liberated females"? I assure you that motherhood has not in the tiniest way eroded my desire for nothing less than equality with my husband or any other man. In fact, it's rather sharpened my beliefs . After all, I want to be a good role model for my daughters. Another value I hope to give them is respect for the choices of others.

Recently my mother let me in on a little secret- she talked my brother out of having a vasectomy. When he and his wife married, they were pretty adamant that they didn't want kids. The rest of my family and hers as well gave them the "you'll change your minds" blah-de-blah, while I defended their choice and tried to convince my family that it was really rude and insulting to say such things. Fast-forward a couple of years and my sister-in-law has changed her mind and really wants a child. My brother still doesn't, and schedules the vasectomy behind her back. He tells my mom about it, and she convinces him that he shouldn't do that to his wife. Now, a year later, she is pregnant and expecting in October. I don't know how to feel about this...excited at being an aunt, indignant on my brother's behalf on being pretty much forced to compromise on something so important to him, indignant on his wife's behalf that he would get a vasectomy behind her back, pissed at my family for butting in, worried for a child that might find it's father isn't very loving or affectionate...it's all very confusing. I would never have wanted my parenthood to be forced upon me, and I really don't like seeing it done to others. What is it's value if it is not a free choice? Is it really something people should feel resigned to? I don't think there's anything wrong with people choosing to stay happy non-parents rather than possibly become miserable parents.

Sephiroth

cleftone, you have proven that the statement you made on how parents are more mature than non-parents is nothing more than complete bullshit.

cleftone

I'm really touched by your articulate responses, folks. By the way, I was rocking my 1 year old to sleep last night, and about a half hour into our usual bonding routine (reading books, singing, getting comfortable in the rocker, turning the lights off), he's still awake and he looks at me and he says "seeballgo". I'm like, "Max, it's time to go to sleep, we can't play." And he just smiles big with his binky in his mouth and buries his head into my chest. He's such a cuddler. Five minutes later he was snoring, but I held him for another twenty minutes or so. Isn't that great?
You should see my kids. They are the cutest in the world, without a doubt! And my oldest, he is such an incredible artist already! I can't wait till he starts private piano lessons in the fall - he's so musical by nature. Any other kid stuff you parents would like to share?

clef

Pomp

cleftone,

Isn't that great?

Yes, it is. I'm glad you've found something that makes you happy.

Last night, I went out to dinner with friends, came home, had an interesting discussion with my roommates, checked my messages here, read for a while, and went to bed. I enjoyed myself immensely. Isn't that great?

Out of curiosity, are you a mother or a father?

echidna

Been away for a few days …

FWIW I’ve got a lot out of this thread. I generally find it quite a taboo off-limits subject amongst friends. It has such a strong tendency to shift into commenting on each other, that it must inevitably end in polarisation. But in my life it’s also quite an important topic which needs some form of open acknowledgment.

And on an anonymous discussion board I think just about everyone’s done quite a good job of explaining themselves. Cleftone thanks for providing your illustrations.

DRFseven

But, of course! When this happened a few days ago, I normally would have shared, anyway, but considering the discussion on the disgust with which these type of remarks are often received, I managed to refrain. But, ok; you've twisted my arm, and it really was funny.

My granddaughter, who's three, had a little accident at the park recently; no big deal, we just came home, changed, and went back. The next day as we were getting ready to go to the park, she asked me to put a diaper on her. I said, "But you don't wear diapers anymore", to which she replied, "You remember what happened when those bad spirits at the park got in my pants!"

Pomp

DRFseven, that is amusing on so many different levels. Did you manage to keep a straight face?

DRFseven

Barely. I scooped her up and said, "Oh, I don't care about any bad spirits!", hoping to convey a feeling of triviality about both wetting accidents and spirits. Thanks for being gracious, PB.

Viti

DRFseven...even us non-parents can appreciate the cute things and frighteningly astute observations kids make. Where do they come up with this stuff? Bad spirits?

My nieces imagination and flare for drama are a source of awe and joy for our whole family.

The problem (going way back to the original post) is when parents talk about their kids and only their kids incessantly or seem to regret their decision and/or hold a grudge against us childfree (childless).

My best friend for over twenty years had her two boys quite close together (now 3 and 18 months)...then went into post partum depression,then started hating her husband then started a flirtation with some guy at work. When I tried to talk to her about her marriage she just kept telling me "You don't know you don't have kids...it's all about them and my happiness doesn't matter" like a mantra...I pointed out that staying in a bad relationship or having an affair could only hurt them...so she accused me of being jealous. Not exactly an advertisement for parenting

DRFseven

Yes, I agree this is true with some parents, and since our society, as a whole, emphatically encourages people to have children, it's understandably a source of great irritation.

The example you mention, that of a woman who says you wouldn't understand her reasons for remaining in an unhappy marriage because you don't have kids, and that you are jealous, is complicated. She is using attribution; that is, in her reasoning, if you are right, everything she has "stood for" has been wrong and devalued, and since she has so much invested in her situation, she is unable to believe this is so. Doing the "wrong thing" for your children is one of the worse acts that can be committed by a person in our society, and she likely feels that she loves her children so much that she can't have "done them wrong", and so she attributes your conflicting opinion to jealousy. You can't be right, so you must be jealous.

I'm not attempting to diagnose your friend's situation; obviously there are many other factors involved, especially her relationship with her husband, that come into play. But she is using attribution as one of her defense mechanisms, as we all tend to do to one degree or another, as a means of protecting a sense of self-worth. I certainly agree with your assessment; in reality, her own behavior is making the problem worse, but it's probably going to have to get even worse before she does something about it.