Valmorian

</strong>

I'm trying to understand why you hold the beliefs you do. I've never once stated you WERE insisting I believe them. I'm not sure where you got that from.

I'm simply trying to reconcile the statements you make about belief=spell and statements you make before, like:

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</strong>

Which seems to strongly suggest that the spell WILL cause someone to like you and that you are tampering with them in some way by casting the spell.

I'm trying to get a handle on what appears to be irrational, that's all.

Bree

Some I can share publically, others I can share privately - I'll email you.

In the beginning, there was a lot of reading. The High Priestess noticed my interest through a series of talks we had about fundamentalism in Christianity - I was "newly gay" and needing a religion where I could be who I was without harm from others. She told me to read everything I could find about paganism (not necessarily Avalonian tradition - just anything I could get my hands on) - and unfortunately I found Silver Ravenwolf. After about 6 months of mucking around in that dribble, she gave me some of her own reading material for me to study.

After about a year of reading, writing, and meditation on what I had learnt in my reading and writing, she started letting me attend rituals, then, as my learning progressed, she let me participate in them. After the second year, we started more intense training. Basically, we followed the eight-fold path:

1.) Mental discipline through fasting and physical disciplines. Initiates need to follow a vegan diet in order to bring clarity of vision, among other things.

2.) Development of the Will through meditation.

3.) Controlled use of drugs to bring further clarity and vision.

4.) The raising and drawing of power.

5.) Ritual knowledge and practise.

6.) Scrying and divination, including Tarot and/or Runes.

7.) "Rising up-on the planes" i.e. astral projection and recognition.

8.) Sexual magick, which is basically a deep understand of the Beltane ritual. It's not that big of a deal, as only the High Priestess and High Priest actually do the deed - I was always the maiden guarding the chalice at the well.

There was also a good deal of natural healing taught to us as well - I can make tinctures and poultices like a pro.

It's difficult to describe, but there was certainly a lot of "dogman" which was not like the Christian dogma, but more like a history of belief. Avalon in myth is an island which existed in Arthurian times, and now supposedly houses King Arthur until Britian has need of him. In reality it was Ynis Wyntryn, a real island where a monastary now stands - Avalon is not seen as a real live place, but as a place of spiritual rest and rehabilitation (a 'summerland' of sorts).

Without getting into too much detail, that was the basis of a priestess' training. I received my bolline and got to wear the blue crescent of the Goddess on the forehead...alas, my mother destroyed my grimore (the journal which I kept during my training) and the bolline as well. Most of my dried herbs were burnt too. I've been trying to recover from memory everything that was in the grimore, as it was such a large part of my life...it's been slow-going.

brighid

It is important for the non-Pagan to understand that mantras such as “An ye harm none, do as ye will” and the Three Fold Law are not laws of nature, but merely ethical codes to abide by. There is nothing mysterious about either mantra or code. Perhaps the language isn’t modern English, but I find no mystery in saying either. As far as the Three Fold Law goes – well, it’s quite simple. Think of it as reaping what ones sows. When one plants a seed in the earth, there is not one flower produced from that single seed, but many blooms and hopefully many healthy fruits as well. That flower will fertilize others and from one single seed (or deed) there are many affects. The same is true for ones actions. I believe that when I do positive things that I will receive positive results (most of the time) and when I do negative or harmful things to myself, or others negative consequences will ensue. There is nothing irrational about that. It is indeed the law of cause and effect, just worded differently. The Three Fold Law (to me anyway) does not mean that if I perform an act that this same act will return to me three times stronger, or seven times stronger than the original act.

Perhaps in the past you have told a lie or know of someone who has told a lie. That original lie is act #1. Then that person must lie again (act #2) in order to protect the original lie and whatever consequence he/she was trying to avoid in the first place. Eventually, there are harmful consequences. Perhaps people in this person’s life no longer trust him/her. One’s self-respect is injured when one lies and eventually the original consequence one was attempting to avoid is realized and often compounded by the effects of that lie. One could say that the outcome was three times worse because of that action – one could say seven times or make no equivocation at all. The opposite could be true with a positive or kind deed.

The Three Fold Law is an analogy to the consequences of one’s actions, nothing more and nothing less. There is no mathematical sequence involved that if one does x the sum will be 3 times x. It is important to understand that this belief is one that demonstrates consequences in a neat, little package that is easy to remember. This neat little code is something that comes into my mind all the time. It makes me stop and think about the possible far reaching consequence of any action I take, not exclusive to ritual or spell work. All in all the Three Fold Law reminds the Pagan to always be mindful of his/her actions and to think about the foreseeable consequences or benefits of those actions.

Imagine if more people thought this way - would you want an action returning to you in a magnitude greater than the original action?


Brighid

brighid

Rule of Three
Ever mind the Rule of Three
Three times what thou givest returns to thee.
This lesson well, thou must learn,
Thee only gets what thou dost earn.



And Ye Harm None ...

And ye shall say these words...
I Will love and harm none.
I Will live, love, die, and live again.
I Will meet, remember, know,
and embrace once more.
For the free will of ALL, and with harm to NONE
As I will
It now is done
So mote it be!

Thirteen Goals of a Witch
1. Know yourself.


2. Know your Craft.


3. Learn.


4. Apply knowledge with wisdom.


5. Achieve balance.


6. Keep your words in good order.


7. Keep your thoughts in good order.


8. Celebrate life!


9. Attune with the cycles of the Earth.


10. Breathe and eat correctly.


11. Exercise the body.


12. Meditate.


13. Honor the Goddess and God.

Brighid

brighid

Principles of Wiccan Belief
(as adopted by the Council of American Witches, April, 1974)

1. We practice rites to attune ourselves with the natural rhythm
of life forces marked by the phases of the moon and the
Seasonal Quarters and Cross-Quarters.

2. We recognize that our intelligence gives us a unique
responsibility towards our environment. We seek to live in
harmony with nature, in ecological balance offering
fulfillment to life and consciousness within an evolutionary
concept.

3. We acknowledge a depth of power far greater than that apparent
to the average person. Because it is far greater than ordinary
it is sometimes called "supernatural", but we see it as lying
within that which is naturally potential to all.

4. We conceive of the Creative Power in the universe as manifest
through polarity -- as masculine and feminine -- and that same
Creative power lies in all people, and functions through the
interaction of masculine and feminine. We value neither above
the other, knowing each to be supportive to the other. We
value sex as pleasure, as the symbol and embodiment of life,
and as one of the sources of energies used in magical practice
and religious worship.

5. We recognize both outer worlds and inner, or psychological,
worlds known sometimes as the Spiritual World, the Collective
Unconscious, Inner Planes, etc. - and we see in the
interaction of these two dimensions the basis for paranormal
phenomena and magickal exercises. We neglect neither dimension
for the other, seeing both as necessary for our fulfillment.

6. We do not recognize any authoritarian hierarchy, but do honor
those who teach, respect those who share their greater
knowledge and wisdom, and acknowledge those who courageously
give of themselves in leadership.

7. We see religion, magic, and wisdom in living as being united
in the way one views the world and live within it - a world
view and philosophy of life which we identify as 'Witchcraft -
the Wiccan Way'.

8. Calling oneself "Witch" does not make one a Witch - but
neither does heredity itself, nor the collecting of titles,
degrees and initiations. A Witch seeks to control the forces
within themselves that make life possible in order to live
wisely and well without harm to others and in harmony with
Nature.

9. We believe in the affirmation and fulfillment of life in a
continuation of evolution and development of consciousness
giving meaning to the Universe we know and our personal role
within it.

10. Our only animosity towards Christianity, or towards any other
religion or philosophy of life, is to the extent that its
institutions have claimed to be 'the only way' and have sought
to deny freedom to others and to suppress other ways of
religious practice and belief.

11. As American Witches, we are not threatened by debates on the
history of the Craft, the origins of various terms, the
legitimacy of various aspects of different traditions. We are
concerned with our present and our future.

12. We do not accept the concept of absolute evil, nor do we
worship any entity known as "Satan" or "the Devil", as defined
by the Christian tradition. We do not seek power through the
suffering of others, nor accept that personal benefit can be
derived only by denial to another.

13. We beleive that we should seek within Nature that which is
contibutory to our health and well-being.

*********
This is not in any way an all-encompassing credo applicable to
all groups who consider themselves Wiccans or Witches, but
rather is the set of principles adopted by one such group. As
there are differences between various Christian sects, so are
there difference between those of Wicca. However, while the
specifics may differ, the general attitude and reasoning behind
these declarations remains relatively consistent.


Brighid

Valmorian

</strong>

While I applaud the sentiment behind it, It's simply not true. "Treat people the way you want to be treated." is certainly ample enough, and makes no "predictions" the way the threefold rule seems to.

</strong>

I'm simply disdainful of sayings that are simply inaccurate, even if they are intended to promote a particular behavior.

After all, "Treat others well, or you'll go to hell!" is really the same kind of thing. There's no reason to believe it's true, but if everyone thought that way...

LianaLi

Alright, I'll bite.

I'll grant that when a spell is cast, in my personal experience, any percieved power in the spell is mostly psychosemantic. The caster puts their belief there and acts on it. On the flip side however, there has been just enough truly odd occurences for be to blieve that there is something going on with a spell than just plain belief. To me, it seems rational, and while I realize it doesn't seem rational to many other, that's fine.


-Liana

Valmorian

Ok then, I just wasn't sure what you were stating before.

Do you think a belief in magic is commonplace amongst wiccans? In my experiences, I've found it to be so, but I have to admit I don't know a HUGE number of wiccans.

brighid

“I'm simply disdainful of sayings that are simply inaccurate, even if they are intended to promote a particular behavior.
After all, "Treat others well, or you'll go to hell!" is really the same kind of thing. There's no reason to believe it's true, but if everyone thought that way... “
You are certainly entitled to your own preferences for expression. Thank goodness we don’t all have to prefer to same things in life. I think we can all agree upon that. However I don’t believe that the statement engendered in the Three Fold Rule is inaccurate, as it is not dictating a specific outcome – it is after all a general rule of conduct. Nor do I feel that it is similar to “Treat others well or go to hell.” Specifically because within the Wiccan belief system there is no hell, no eternal punishment and no outside power that will judge or destroy you for treating others poorly. The consequences your reap will be one this plain of reality. It simply states that whatever one does – good or bad – will affect one directly – and generally as in anything the benefits/consequences will be potentially greater than the deed. It is a statement that reinforces personal responsibility for every action and there is no savior coming to rescue you if you treat others like crap. In the end, you are the only one responsible.
I do find the Three Fold Rule to be true in principle. Whatever I do, positive or negative affects me (and potentially others) in a multitude of ways – just as casting a stone into a pond creates a ripple effect. Again – it is NOT a mathematical equation or a law of physics, and nowhere amongst Wiccan teachings is this taught as dogma or as an exact feature to behavior. It is a mantra for ethical behavior because indeed you will reap what you sow. Happy Harvesting!

Brighid

jess

Hey Val--- long time no see...

I guess you would have to define 'hell' here, before you can equate it.

The threefold rule is not an automatic punishment for everyone--- despite what some newbies say, at least from my experiences/research. It is a code of honor a wiccan and many pagans accept upon choosing that path--- it is an acceptance of the choices they make.

Basically, it is like a Baptist accepts that he will no longer be able to drink, a Wiccan accpts that her actions will be returned threefold.

If life really were like that, it would be heaven.