DMB

To atheists, Eric, life seems neither just nor unjust, because we don't believe that there is a supernatural lawgiver or judge. Justice, therefore, doesn't come into it. Life is random. Sometimes you get good things happening to you; sometimes bad. In neither case does there appear to be much of a link with what you actually deserve.

As to the loving god who is able to correct all injustice in a hypothetical life after death (even if he is not omnipotent?) why couldn't he simply have got things right in the life that we are all aware of now? Why should we need two lives? And if two, why not a multiplicity, as believed by hindus and buddhists?

Eric H

Hi Dmb,
One more way of looking at probabilities, you see evidence that God does not exist, I see evidence that he does exist.
We can both say that ninety percent of the evidence backs up our own conclusion.
One of us has come to a conclusion based on wrong evidence and is totally wrong, even if the evidence and probabilities that we use seem overwhelming.
Sadly there is no proof, we can not know for sure, we are left to do what we think is right.

Quote DMB
As to the loving god who is able to correct all injustice in a hypothetical life after death (even if he is not omnipotent?) why couldn't he simply have got things right in the life that we are all aware of now? Why should we need two lives? And if two, why not a multiplicity, as believed by hindus and buddhists?


We can’t even prove the existence of God, and so all these other questions you come up with like getting things right first time, or being Hindu, or Buddhist, complicates things further.
Possibly you stopped reading my first post when I started of with the premise that God exists, I can imagine that did not go down very well with people here.
However I do believe that there are a number of choices available in how a God could create life, and I did list some ways to challenge the mind.
Sadly my first post was a rant, but it only has any meaning if it is read as a whole.
Peace

Eric
[B]

Eric H

Hi DMB
Having read posts on this forum, it seems that many people who do not believe in a God also have ideas of what this non- existent God is.

It seems we always find the God that we are looking for, if we look for a fictitious God then that is the God we will find.

In many ways this is very much like people who believe, we also find the God we are looking for.

When two sincere people argue over their beliefs, they both see themselves as being right.

Questions about God, and his existence, must be the cause for millions or even billions of sincere people to hold firm and conflicting beliefs.

Peace

Eric

DMB

Eric: you're still not right on this. I don't claim to see evidence that god doesn't exist; I say I don't see any evidence that suggests to me that any god(s) exist(s). That is quite different, and most atheists on this board would take a similar position.

I still am uncomfortable with your use of probabilities. It looks like "Think of a number". IMO your arguments would be better without reference to probabilities.

You also said:
It's not clear to me whether this remark is just a general summation or is intended to apply to me. If the latter, I should perhaps explain that, unlike many people in this forum, I have never been a xian or any other sort of theist. I don't find a xian god any more interesting or likely than, say, Artemis and Apollo. I tend to react to what people post about their particular god(s) rather than having fixed ideas about what a god ought to be like. Religion interests me greatly as a psychological phenomenon.

You started this thread by assuming god exists. But it wasn't just any god: it was "God", by which you meant the xian god. Is it possible for you to imagine a creator of the universe (assuming again that there is one) who is nothing at all like the xian god? At the very least a god who was totally detached from the bible, Jesus, and so on? I don't see why such a hypothetical god couldn't have this important characteristic of love. You could then try deducing what other characteristics it might have that were not incompatible with the first ones.

You see, if you read a lot of stuff here, you will find that there are many objections to the xian god as a supposed combination of incompatible qualities.

Wyz_sub10

Interesting you should say this.

An atheist's ideas of a Christian god generally come from the Christians they hear or meet, or from what they were taught (or even believed) themselves growing up.

You have this one backwards, Eric H. The problem lies not with the defined atheist concept of the Christian god, but with the undefined Christian concept of god.

Shadowy Man

So what? I have a pretty good feel for the personality of the X-Man named Wolverine, but that doesn't mean he exists outside of a comic book or a movie.

Infidelettante

MY, my so much to delete and so little time. Genisis 2:1-15 God wanted a place to kick back away from the grind of watching over the angels. A little peace and quiet, maybe a few plants, a garden. Not to much to ask. After all, He was God after all. The sun kept the plants healthy and the dew kept things moist. The moon through the palms at night was just beautiful and the stars have never been lovelier. But gardens are a lot of work. So God made a man "to dress it and to keep it." Gen.2:15 There is your reason for creation. At least the only reason you'll find in the Bible. God wanted to walk "in the cool of the day" in his garden but not have to do all the work it takes to maintain one. Sound like a good reason to put us all through this to you?

JT

Eric H

Hello DMB

quote
Having read posts on this forum, it seems that many people who do not believe in a God also have ideas of what this non- existent God is.

This was just a general observation; it was not even aimed solely at people who do not believe in a God. It also seems that people who believe in a God also have diverse ideas of what God is.

quote
]B]Religion interests me greatly as a psychological phenomenon.[/B]
Yes me to, the bottom line seems to be to be motivation, and why we would want to act in the way that we do. An American General said his troops where highly motivated and he summed up motivation as,
Getting someone, to do something WILLINGLY, that they would not want to do at all.
It’s the willing part that is hard. When you think about this, he is asking his soldiers to go and shoot people, to do this they have to be close enough for someone to shoot back at them.
Money may be part of the motivation for some soldiers, defending their country could be another motivation, some may like to kill, others may do it because they are fighting for a worthwhile cause, a greater good.
Possibly the greatest motivation is to say that God is on our side, it is a just war we are fighting.
We use God to justify what we want to do, I believe that world leaders are still trying to do this today.

Peace

Eric[

Eric H

Hello Wyz_sub10

You have this one backwards, Eric H. The problem lies not with the defined atheist concept of the Christian god, but with the undefined Christian concept of god.

There are many ways to look at this, someone can believe in a God for fifty years, then stop believing.
Someone can believe there is no God for fifty years and then start believing.

Something causes these radical changes in the way people stop believing or start believing,

The same evidence is there for believers and non- believers to see, it seems strange that people can look at the same thing and perceive almost opposite interpretations.

Has the evidence for the existence of the Christian God changed?

We think of ourselves as being rational and sane people, but how can we all see the same things so differently?

Peace

Eric

Eric H

Hi JT

quote
God wanted to walk "in the cool of the day" in his garden but not have to do all the work it takes to maintain one. Sound like a good reason to put us all through this to you?


Not really,

I’m sure you can come up with something better. But can you come up with something that does not involve beer?

Peace

Eric