Robert G. Ingersoll

I disagree with those here who are attempting to make the case that the French are pussies. Move back an inch or so over the 'taint' and I think you'll find a better metaphor for the French.

sullster

You don't even need jokes.

The French national bird is the chicken.

The French fighter-jet is called a Mirage.


There have been some excellent reviews here of the French defeat to Hitler in 1940. A big problem I have with the French is their behaviour under the occupation.

Albert Speer, Hitler's armaments minister, was quoted as saying,"What resistance?", when asked what he thought about the French Resistance. Considering the size of France, it did not disrupt the Nazis as much as did resistances in Serbia or even Denmark. The French attitude of "C'est la Vie", seemed to view collaboration as the best strategy.

The collaborationist Vichy government which ruled southern France until the Allied invasion of North Africa, was more than willing to send Jews to the Nazi camps. It will be noted that even Italy, a German ally, was not as zealous at giving up its Jews.

The French could have fought a guerrilla war in the mountains of southern France, they did not.

They could have refused to fight Allied forces in Vichy France controlled Algeria, they did not.

They could have used their huge and well equipped army and invaded Germany in 1939, during the German Polish campaign, they did not.(Hitler was terrified of this).

The French could have refused to create a French Waffen SS division which fought on the Russian front and as noted by another poster, fought to the death in Berlin in 1945.

The haughty arrogance of France must be balanced with the sink hole of their post 1940 history.

Triple Six

I don't have any problems with Chirac refusing to dance to Bush's war mongering tune.

I do have problems when he pretends it is for moral reasons when the French seem to have few scruples selling arms to and investing in some rather dubious regimes.

OwnRules

Here:

Shivershot

As soon as we're done closing down some terrorist shops in Iraq, we'll be more than happy to help the French with their own little terrorist problems too...

Yes, a heartfelt thanks to General Lafayette during the Rev. War, he got some streets named after him, what more do they need... and now to current events.

Soon as France realizes that it's as neutered as Britain in regards to being a world power, the better off we'll all be. Would Vietnam have been nearly the debacle it was were it not for their poor choices regarding Ho Chi Minh?

Fr.Andrew

Layman): Hmm. I have yet to see a constitution requiring democratically elected leaders to do exactly what a few public opinion polls tell them to.
If these leaders really thought their populations would hold this against them, I doubt they would be as enthusiastic about it as they are.
And kudos for them for doing what they were elected to do
(Fr Andrew): So, I'm guessing you're OK with leaders who thumb their noses at large numbers of their citzens once they're in office?

Claudia

Selected from the article posted by pz: I think she got French opinion quite well (history will tell if we are right or if G.W.B. is).

Nevertheless, I agree that Chirac has been eccessively arrogant in his comments to other European countries about their supportive letter to US (even if he can be right, he would have done better to shut up). Which does not surprise me, he is as arrogant in internal affairs of France.

August Spies

sounds more like a description of people from Mississippi.

August Spies

sullster:

show some evidence Denmark was more trouble than the french reisistance.

you might also want to note that Italy was not a regime SET UP BY germany. Do you really find it surprising the goverment Germany installed went along with german plans?

neither DID anyone. Learn some history, the western powers had reasons for what they did. This is not to say they were RIGHT by any means. But dont' condem France for things that apply to every western power.

sullster

I hate smiley faces. I wish they were not here and not used.

I don't study Marxist history so I don't know the dialectical materialist class struggle mechanisms behind the allied actions during the 1930's. I am sure that is the history to which you refer.

I will condemn France for things which applied to them alone. They were the largest power in Western Europe and the major force for the Versailles Treaty punishing Germany after WW1. They utterly failed in enforcing the treaty during the rise of Nazi Germany. Agreed, that France was in a state of denial like other Western nations, yet they were the sole nation in a position to check the rise of German militarism and they didn't. France and France alone deserves a lot of blame.

Vichy was installed by the Nazis, because they knew the French would cooperate with a collaborationist government. There were huge segments of the French establishment who were happy to be a part of the Third Reich. The French could have resisted everywhere, they didn't.

I am distressed that the Vichy Regime used French police to round up Jews for the Germans. They cooperated on a level which was unnecessary.