Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magus55 · 06-24-2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt
I don't know why some Christians dont believe Judaism is legitimate - I know several that hold to the belief that Jews are under their own covenant with God - Christ died to allow Gentiles in- so to speak. How can God break the covenant with his own people? How could he change the rules, and never bother to let them know?
Even Paul implies that Jews are saved in these verses- God
s call being irrevocable - God does not go back on his promise to the Jewish people.

Rom 11: 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[6] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[7]
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

Israel the nation will be saved, not all Jews. Jesus will return Israel to its glory.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

winstonjen · 06-24-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Quite an about-face from the things in the OT. Did the writers change their mind because of the Roman Empire's dominance? That is, if Israel was still a dominant military force, would they still consider themselves superior?

Calzaer · 06-24-2003, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Or maybe they are future prophecies that will happen when Jesus returns.

Or maybe giant woodchucks gnawed on the pages of the original copy of the Bible, and the resulting teeth marks looked sorta like Hebrew letters, so the translators said "Let's make this into a verse, just for fun!".

Assuming facts-not-in-evidence is FUN!

Calzaer · 06-25-2003, 11:00 PM

bump!

Javaman · 06-26-2003, 02:01 AM

Seconded.

EstherRose · 06-26-2003, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Quite an about-face from the things in the OT.

Here are some messianic prophecies from the Old Testament that showed that the messiah would minister to the gentiles as well as the Jews.

Isaiah 42
1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him
and he will bring justice to the nations.
2 He will not shout or cry out,
or raise his voice in the streets.
3 A bruised reed he will not break,
and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.
In faithfulness he will bring forth justice;

Isaiah 11
10 In that day the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his place of rest will be glorious.

Isaiah 42
6 "I, the LORD , have called you in righteousness;
I will take hold of your hand.
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people
and a light for the Gentiles,

Isaiah 49
6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Quote:

I don't know why some Christians dont believe Judaism is legitimate - I know several that hold to the belief that Jews are under their own covenant with God - Christ died to allow Gentiles in- so to speak. How can God break the covenant with his own people? How could he change the rules, and never bother to let them know?

Actually God did let them know. He did it through some of the messianic prophecies in the Old Testament. The Jews at that time would have been fairly well versed in it thanks to the religious leaders of the day.

Jeremiah 31
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD ,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [4] them, [5] "
declares the LORD .
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD .
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD .
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

Was there anything else you wanted to have answered? The last few posts were not all that clear on what was being asked. (I do not mean the �bump� posts.)

Javaman · 06-26-2003, 04:24 AM

I realize that this thread has strayed a bit from the OP. I'd like to attempt (possibly incorrectly) to summarize the Christian POV.

Christians are under no obligation to follow the Mosaic/Levitican laws because

- Those laws were fulfilled by the coming of the Christ

or

- Those laws only applied to Jews and their descendants

I have a few questions, then.
1. Could someone summarize what it means to "fulfill" a law?
2. If (as pointed out in another thread) our works only lay out HOW nice our portion of heaven is, would it not behoove a Christian to follow these laws anyway to get a good spot?
3. As these laws include the 10 Commandments, why are Christians so keen on posting them when they don't apply?

Javaman · 06-26-2003, 04:27 AM

EstherRose,
How 'bout this one?

Quote:

Originally posted by agnawstick
I am getting repetitive here, but isn't there a simple test in essence for Christians to show their faith? Jesus said to renounce possessions, love your enemies, judge not lest ye be judged, give away everything to anybody who asks, etc...

If you really really really (3 reallys even) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, he is speaking for God, why don't Christians do it? Blinding faith in Jesus means following the Sermon on the Mount.

Did Jesus say those words? Did Jesus mean those words? Is he the Messiah? Did he expect Matthew to keep collecting taxes and living in luxury until he was ready? Did he exhort the crowds at the mountain to hold onto their possessions until they were good and ready to part with them? No. He said to give up all earthly possessions now, as soon as you heard his words.

If you genuinely believe that the Christian God created life, the universe, and everything, and that Jesus was ordering you to do this, I would do it. It is good advice to begin with in the first place.
Unless you believe that there is no afterlife, Jesus/God will not provide for you if you let go of your belongings.

Gandhi, who was influenced by Tolstoy, tried to pattern his life on the Sermon on the Mount. If a Hindu could make the effort, why can't a Christian actually do the same? A: It is damned hard. If you had genuine faith that Jesus commanded you to do this, and not platitudes, one would do it. Period. Not tomorrow, not tithing 10%, not just heading to church Sunday. One would fall on their knees, repent, divest their wealth, embrace their enemies, and the rest of what the Sermon on the Mount requires. It doesn't happen. Because there is no faith. There must be works with faith. Because if one has genuine faith, one does the works that Jesus(The one allegedly you believe in) asked you to do. If Gandhi was a christian, I would not reject him as a true christian.
I would say, you believed in Christ, you did what christ told you, and you acted upon it. I disagree, but wow, I find no fault in you.
For the rest of the lot though....

Javaman · 06-26-2003, 04:32 AM

EstherRose,

Or Calzaer's post from June 24th which included this:

Another interesting note: Matthew lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus. But according to the prophecy in Jeremiah 22:28-30, this EXPLICITLY DISQUALIFIES Jesus from being the messiah!

Among many refutations/questions. I realize it's a long post but, based on your question, I think you must have missed it.

Calzaer · 06-26-2003, 10:24 AM

*sigh* I was hoping those prophecies could be defended. I get so sick of theistic "crumple zone" arguments. When they're hit throw 'em away, and put up brand new ones. Eventually I'll just get tired of refuting them and wander off, and they'll claim victory. Argument from Infinite Claims, or something.

The point is not that Jesus fulfilled a couple prophecies. The point is that the Messiah must fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies, or he's not the Messiah. This upsets me to no end. The prophecies in Micah 5 are clearly NOT talking about Jesus, but nobody ever responds to that. All nations didn't bow to him, but nobody ever talks about that. His name was Jesus, not Emmanuel, but nobody ever talks about that. All anyone can say is "Look! He was born of a woman and spoke in parables! THE PROPHECY IS FULFILLED!"

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06-25-2003, 11:00 PM	#74
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	bump!

06-26-2003, 02:01 AM	#75
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	Seconded.

06-26-2003, 04:24 AM	#77
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	I realize that this thread has strayed a bit from the OP. I'd like to attempt (possibly incorrectly) to summarize the Christian POV. Christians are under no obligation to follow the Mosaic/Levitican laws because - Those laws were fulfilled by the coming of the Christ or - Those laws only applied to Jews and their descendants I have a few questions, then. 1. Could someone summarize what it means to "fulfill" a law? 2. If (as pointed out in another thread) our works only lay out HOW nice our portion of heaven is, would it not behoove a Christian to follow these laws anyway to get a good spot? 3. As these laws include the 10 Commandments, why are Christians so keen on posting them when they don't apply?

06-26-2003, 04:32 AM	#79
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	EstherRose, Or Calzaer's post from June 24th which included this: Another interesting note: Matthew lists Jeconiah as an ancestor of Jesus. But according to the prophecy in Jeremiah 22:28-30, this EXPLICITLY DISQUALIFIES Jesus from being the messiah! Among many refutations/questions. I realize it's a long post but, based on your question, I think you must have missed it.

06-26-2003, 10:24 AM	#80
Calzaer Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ohio Posts: 2,762	sigh I was hoping those prophecies could be defended. I get so sick of theistic "crumple zone" arguments. When they're hit throw 'em away, and put up brand new ones. Eventually I'll just get tired of refuting them and wander off, and they'll claim victory. Argument from Infinite Claims, or something. The point is not that Jesus fulfilled a couple prophecies. The point is that the Messiah must fulfill ALL of the messianic prophecies, or he's not the Messiah. This upsets me to no end. The prophecies in Micah 5 are clearly NOT talking about Jesus, but nobody ever responds to that. All nations didn't bow to him, but nobody ever talks about that. His name was Jesus, not Emmanuel, but nobody ever talks about that. All anyone can say is "Look! He was born of a woman and spoke in parables! THE PROPHECY IS FULFILLED!"

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