Freethought & Rationalism Archive

B. H. Manners · 02-08-2003, 08:49 PM

I think one reason speech is not as free as one would like under communism is the fact that the state is the employer---state capitalist. Sure, contribution and feedback may be allowed in certain forms and at certain times, but like a capitalist business here in the US once a decision is made regarding policy it is time to hush.

To me it really is the pot calling the kettle black. We are able to make fun of George Bush because he has relatively little impact on our lives day to day whereas our employers do. Go out and criticize your boss in the name of free speech and see what happens to you. There is a reason you are not allowed to criticize your boss in the name of free speech but you can GWB.

Criticizing GWB does not lead to production slow downs, worker-manager conflicts, ect. that would mess up a business. Having such a freedom at work would do that and that is why it is not allowed. Though technically not on "the books" I think we all know why you don't criticize your boss publicly after hours.

B. H. Manners · 02-08-2003, 08:50 PM

For the sake of argument, if I went to Cuba how could I absolutely objectively determine if socialism there was good or bad?

Me and Me · 02-08-2003, 08:56 PM

Name any leader of any country that doesn't live like a "king".

He is so rich that he wears the same clothes everyday. Riiiiiiiight.

Let me explain the mentality of a poor person as I used to live in the ghetto. We don't want to wear the same clothes everyday, sometimes we have to because we don't have any choice. And as soon as we can wear something else we do. It is looked upon and felt as being something very shameful, and you feel guilty about it. So if Castro can afford other clothes, and chooses not to allow a burgeois mentality to distract him then I applaud him for that.

Once again the double standared. 30 million americans living at or below the poverty line makes no dent in your support for Capitalism so how do you expect us to believe your crocodile tears when you speak of poor people in Cuba? Nobody takes you seriously if you hold such a glaring contradiction in your resoning.

B. H. Manners · 02-08-2003, 09:04 PM

That is a good point Me and Me. Why don't the capitalists end poverty since they say poverty is one of the signs of communism's failure.

moon · 02-08-2003, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
If his goal is to benefit the people and the workers, why does he live like a king while the workers starve?

He doesn't and they don't.

Please stop lying for your masters.

moon · 02-08-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cjack
At issue (for me) in Cuba is the simple fact that Castro is a dictator. No free elections. No free press. No freedom to dissent. If there could be free elections in Cuba tomorrow, and they elected Castro, I wouldn't be surprised...since they haven't known anything else for over 40 years...but the Cuban people deserve to be free to choose their leaders.

I think the problem here is your ignorance, and the fact that you have accepted anti-communist propaganda as fact.

Castro a dictator? Define what a dictator is. No free elections? That's news to me. No free press? Free for whom, AOL, the CIA? No freedom to dissent? Really?

You do realize that Cuba is under attack by the world's largest superpower, right?

Me and Me · 02-08-2003, 09:13 PM

Elections are vastly overrated, and mean nothing if the people can't directly influence the decisions of their govt, which is the case in the U.S.

There are elections in Cuba, the people vote on who they want to represent there province and vote on other things. The Communist party votes on who they want to be the chairman of the Communist party.

Grad Student Humanist · 02-08-2003, 10:51 PM

So far the Communist propagandists on this thread have denied that Cuba is a dictatorship, that Castro lives in luxury while denying the Cuban people the opportunity to do the same, that Cuba tramples human rights, that Cuba doesn't tolerate political dissent, that Cuba doesn't have free elections. They, of course, can offer no evidence for any of these claims which none but the most brazen communist propagandist believes. Their lack of honesty undermines their credibility which was questionable to begin with and does nothing to advance their agenda. Of course, being armchair communists it doesn't matter to them what the people in Cuba are really going through since they live in places where they have the freedom and the means to own computers and spout their lies all over an internet forum. Apparently they subscribe to the old adage that if you tell a lie often enough it will then be believed. But luckily, besides "Moon" and "Me and Me," even the more liberal and progressive members of this forum value intellectual honesty and integrity, thus making a constructive dialogue possible.

The follwing are some links which demonstrate that Cuba does indeed trample on its citizens human rights and jail people for dissent:

List of Cuban political prisoners and links to Human Rights Reports on Cuba: www.fiu.edu/~fcf/prison.html

Amnesty International report on Cuban prisoners of conscience, detention without trial, harrasment of dissidents and depriving political prisoners of medical care:
http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/cuba!Open

Amnesty International report on conditions of political prisoners in a Cuban prison: http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/AMR250441997

Link all of Amnesty International documents detailing human rights abuses in Cuba: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countr...t=30&Expandall

Loren Pechtel · 02-08-2003, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Me and Me
Once again the Capitalists have to make a (communism has killled alot of people) different topic.

Someone mentioned Castro and him being a dictator. What is wrong with being a dictator if your purpose and goals are to benefit the majority of the population, the workers?

The benign dictator is a fairy tale.

Loren Pechtel · 02-08-2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by Me and Me
B. H. Manners

Your post was a joke right?

Communism can't be maintained without force?

Name one communist country without emigration controls.
Note: China isn't really communist anymore. Even then you need your employer's permission to leave the country even as a tourist.

And no you can't go to Cuba because the U.S. does not allow travel to Cuba. Cuba doesn't bar americans from visiting though.

Actually, there's no law prohibiting Americans from going there. What there is is a law prohibiting them from spending their money there. An American can go if the trip is paid for entirely by a non-American.

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02-08-2003, 08:49 PM	#71
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	I think one reason speech is not as free as one would like under communism is the fact that the state is the employer---state capitalist. Sure, contribution and feedback may be allowed in certain forms and at certain times, but like a capitalist business here in the US once a decision is made regarding policy it is time to hush. To me it really is the pot calling the kettle black. We are able to make fun of George Bush because he has relatively little impact on our lives day to day whereas our employers do. Go out and criticize your boss in the name of free speech and see what happens to you. There is a reason you are not allowed to criticize your boss in the name of free speech but you can GWB. Criticizing GWB does not lead to production slow downs, worker-manager conflicts, ect. that would mess up a business. Having such a freedom at work would do that and that is why it is not allowed. Though technically not on "the books" I think we all know why you don't criticize your boss publicly after hours.

02-08-2003, 08:50 PM	#72
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	For the sake of argument, if I went to Cuba how could I absolutely objectively determine if socialism there was good or bad?

02-08-2003, 08:56 PM	#73
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	Name any leader of any country that doesn't live like a "king". He is so rich that he wears the same clothes everyday. Riiiiiiiight. Let me explain the mentality of a poor person as I used to live in the ghetto. We don't want to wear the same clothes everyday, sometimes we have to because we don't have any choice. And as soon as we can wear something else we do. It is looked upon and felt as being something very shameful, and you feel guilty about it. So if Castro can afford other clothes, and chooses not to allow a burgeois mentality to distract him then I applaud him for that. Once again the double standared. 30 million americans living at or below the poverty line makes no dent in your support for Capitalism so how do you expect us to believe your crocodile tears when you speak of poor people in Cuba? Nobody takes you seriously if you hold such a glaring contradiction in your resoning.

02-08-2003, 09:04 PM	#74
B. H. Manners Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,213	That is a good point Me and Me. Why don't the capitalists end poverty since they say poverty is one of the signs of communism's failure.

02-08-2003, 09:13 PM	#77
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	Elections are vastly overrated, and mean nothing if the people can't directly influence the decisions of their govt, which is the case in the U.S. There are elections in Cuba, the people vote on who they want to represent there province and vote on other things. The Communist party votes on who they want to be the chairman of the Communist party.

02-08-2003, 10:51 PM	#78
Grad Student Humanist Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melrose, MA Posts: 961	So far the Communist propagandists on this thread have denied that Cuba is a dictatorship, that Castro lives in luxury while denying the Cuban people the opportunity to do the same, that Cuba tramples human rights, that Cuba doesn't tolerate political dissent, that Cuba doesn't have free elections. They, of course, can offer no evidence for any of these claims which none but the most brazen communist propagandist believes. Their lack of honesty undermines their credibility which was questionable to begin with and does nothing to advance their agenda. Of course, being armchair communists it doesn't matter to them what the people in Cuba are really going through since they live in places where they have the freedom and the means to own computers and spout their lies all over an internet forum. Apparently they subscribe to the old adage that if you tell a lie often enough it will then be believed. But luckily, besides "Moon" and "Me and Me," even the more liberal and progressive members of this forum value intellectual honesty and integrity, thus making a constructive dialogue possible. The follwing are some links which demonstrate that Cuba does indeed trample on its citizens human rights and jail people for dissent: List of Cuban political prisoners and links to Human Rights Reports on Cuba: www.fiu.edu/~fcf/prison.html Amnesty International report on Cuban prisoners of conscience, detention without trial, harrasment of dissidents and depriving political prisoners of medical care: http://web.amnesty.org/web/ar2002.nsf/amr/cuba!Open Amnesty International report on conditions of political prisoners in a Cuban prison: http://www.web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/AMR250441997 Link all of Amnesty International documents detailing human rights abuses in Cuba: http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/countr...t=30&Expandall

02-08-2003, 11:41 PM	#80
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Originally posted by Me and Me B. H. Manners Your post was a joke right? Communism can't be maintained without force? Name one communist country without emigration controls. Note: China isn't really communist anymore. Even then you need your employer's permission to leave the country even as a tourist. And no you can't go to Cuba because the U.S. does not allow travel to Cuba. Cuba doesn't bar americans from visiting though. Actually, there's no law prohibiting Americans from going there. What there is is a law prohibiting them from spending their money there. An American can go if the trip is paid for entirely by a non-American.

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