scigirl

When comparing boot camp to bullying, you must consider the intent as well. Is it the intent of boot camp to ultimately help the men and women (not children) to become better soldiers? Yes. Is it the intent of a bully to go around and say, "Humm, who need self esteem boosting today, I'm feeling charitable and I want to help my fellow man?" Doubtful - especially in some of the examples posted previously. You don't kill someone's cat to help someone, I"m sorry.

scigirl

eldar1011

I can see what you're saying, but I hold the position that bullying, by definition, requires malice. The kind of "bullying" you're describing in the Marine Corps isn't really bullying. As mentioned by scigirl intent counts for a lot. Let's refer to this kind of "bullying" as "shmullying"...a kind of pretend bullying.

But, real bullying. That's harmful for all the reasons stated throughout this thread.

Majestyk

Okay!!

I notice that some of us on this thread can find distinction between terms and scenarios when it suits their arguments and yet, are unable to accept such differentiations when it does not.

This is getting to be like arguing with theists.

Ab_Normal

I don't get it. All I said was boot camp != grade school.

Majestyk

My statement was not referencing your post alone.

I pulled your quote because, I had to stand up to your obvious attempt to bully me with the exclamation point at the end of your post. I will not be intimidated by such aggressive actions.

Ab_Normal

Am I supposed to be smiling? Because I am.

sweep

and

It seems clear to me that people who smile don't actually want to hurt anyone. Demeaning is fun. that is why I am here. If you don't like to play then maybe you need a change of scenery.

I recall how bad writing looks when I frown. In other words, my mood is simply different, and words concordant, even though our empathy is incongruent. what I am basically trying to say is that we miss out on so much because our mood frames our perception. Then the things we write create conflict. In relation to your own mood majestyk:

intimidated and aggressive reflect anger, suspicion & possibly paranoia. the fact to me isn't obvious, reflecting my own mood. thereby, I don't see how !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *pow*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! constitutes an aggressive behaviour or action. Real violence makes good people sick while bad ones feel nothing sane or worth fighting for. Random acts of the 21st century: standing on a flag and roaring. now isn't that just piss funny? It frightens me to death? no, I relax and it becomes something fluffier, and laughter ensues. shit, someone pull me out of this.

that, or I am self referencing again

but then again, I am not supposed to be writing either

Majestyk

Well, stop it or you'll go blind.

The Lone Ranger

As I understand it, this is the argument:

• Proposition #1: Bullies gain from the act of bullying, since they gain self-confidence thereby.
  
  Proposition #2: Those targeted by bullies ultimately gain as well, since they're forced to learn to stand up for themselves, a valuable and important skill.
  
  Conclusion: Bullying is, on the whole, a good thing therefore, since both the bully and his/her victim(s) ultimately gain from the experience.

Let's examine the logic of this argument.


Is Proposition #1 true? If it is not, then the argument collapses immediately.

So far, the claim that bullies gain self-esteem through bullying is unsubstantiated. Furthermore, several people have pointed out that there's considerable evidence that the claim is, in fact, false.

The claim is, at best, unsubstantiated, and it is very probably false. Therefore, the conclusion is unsupported.


Is Proposition #2 true?

Again, it is an unsubstantiated claim. In some cases the victim of bullying may thereby learn to deal with adversity, but there's no evidence to suggest that this is the rule. On the contrary, the evidence suggests that most victims of bullying are harmed by the experience, not helped.

***

So, the argument is unsound.

The available evidence strongly suggests that bullying is ultimately bad for both the victims and the bullies in most cases. Even if some ultimately gain, it is therefore improper to tolerate bullying, since it undoubtedly causes more harm than good.

It would seem that a far better solution is to try to give the bullies the help they need in order to overcome their problems, and to help the victims gain self-confidence through other means.

Cheers,

Michael

Majestyk

That's not my position. This is the statement I first offered on this thread:
"Bullying and Submission in children are both "immoral". Neither can exist individually without, the other. In children it is to be expected, up to a point. It is part of the learning process. It is the responsibility the adult custodian of the children to ensure that neither behavior is allowed to go "unpunished"."