josephpalazzo

Honest folks, many of you have a chip on your shoulders against Christianity (I'm talking to fellow atheists) mainly because your atheism has grown up against your Christian roots, and that was an uphill battle to say the least. I'm one of them. But need I remind you that our Western values of democracy, rule of law, secularism and human rights grew out of our Christian/Judeaic heritage. None of these was values were espoused by Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other major religion. If atheism has been allowed to grow and flourish, that has occurred in the Western world. Sure, the right-wing Christian nuts are dangerous but that pales in comparison to the Wahhabist ideology that threathens our world. If the Wahhabists and the fundamentalist terrorists that it has sprouted ever win, we atheists are heading for the cauldron.

So please get yourself focused, otherwise you won't be able to see the forest from the trees.

May the force be with you.

JP

jayh

democracy:There is NOT ONE instance of democracy in the Bible. Laws are passed down from god or king to the people below, never the other way.


rule of law: The Egyptions, Hammarabi and others established rule of law long before the Palestinian tribe that became Isreal even organized. The Greeks and Romans developed it to a high art.

secularism: There is no room for secularism or freedom of religion in the Biblical structure. Having the wrong religion, no religion, or even just the 'wrong' sect of the Jewish religion was a capital offense. (How many did Elijah and Elisha kill for 'apostasy').


human rights: There were some issues of human rights (though slavery, and vengeance killing were fully accepted), but other cultures did as well or better.

josephpalazzo

Where in my post did I ever say that those values were borned out of the bible?

Go back and read it properly.

mga

reactions are not so much from a "chip on the shoulder" reaction, but, you have to admit that when the christian right gets extreme, you can hardly sit back and shrug it off....and there seems to be a growing number of them.

and, i may garee with you that our country was probably based on christian values, but you also have to admit that lately the extreme groups are abusing this to the point where it becomes radical..all under the pretense of "christianity". yet, i don't see as much out-cry form the moderate christian groups to reists the extreme christian movement. if you remain quiet about it, one can only assume you support it. therefore, we categorize almost all christian groups as being radical right.

right now, the christian coalition has been making plans to "take the state of georgia back" into the hands of god. their admitted goal is to encourage all christians to move to south carolina so that they can create their own state, separate from the USA, and govern themselves "as god would". think of the ramifications actions such as this would have on america if all groups, religious or political, decided to form their own state and government. we'd be in a total mess. but this is acceptable because they are christians and doing this "under god"??? bullshit...they should be charged with treason.

additionally, the constant barrage of attempts to put god and religion into our (my) government by the christian groups must be and should be resisted. once the door is opened, there is no turning back. america has become a great nation in it's short life span without religion being a decreed part of our laws, education, and government, so why, all of a sudden, is there this need to make christianity an integral part of the government?

this is what i resist.

josephpalazzo

I agree with you that the Christian right-wing nuts are dangerous, and we should never let them highjack our Western values. But even Charles Krauthammer, a stout defender of consevative issues, has written recently that, >>To teach faith as science is to undermine the very idea of science, which is the acquisition of new knowledge through hypothesis, experimentation and evidence. To teach it as science is to encourage the supercilious caricature of America as a nation in the thrall of religious authority. To teach it as science is to discredit the welcome recent advances in permitting the public expression of religion. Faith can and should be proclaimed from every mountaintop and city square. But it has no place in science class. To impose it on the teaching of evolution is not just to invite ridicule but to earn it.<<

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/k...088869,00.html

Clearly, the right-wing nuts have gone too far, and there is a backlash growing in the US.

But more importantly, we should not lose sight of the greater danger of Wahhabism, http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=132750

jayh

our Western values of democracy, rule of law, secularism and human rights grew out of our Christian/Judeaic heritage. None of these was values were espoused by Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism or any other major religion.

So you are saying these are Christian but not Biblical? (Islam, btw, is based on the OT as well as Koran)

Amen-Moses

You mentioned a christian heritage, isn't the bible the arbiter of that heritage?

Amen-Moses

josephpalazzo

Absolutely not, our Western values grew out from Europe where many influences took place, in particular, the philosophy of Plato, Aristotle, Thomas Aquinas, Luther, Descartes, Kant, Nietzsche, and a whole line of thinkers, to enumerate them all would require a lot more spaces. But that took place in a Christian/judeaic environment, Europe where Chritianity was the dominant religion, hence it played that role of incubation.

FarmMama

The real 'dark force', IMO, is ignorance. On both sides of the isle. As long as we remain polarized theres little chance that we'll ever learn enough to make the changes necessary to actually deal with the problems we face, of which terrorism and fundamentalism are only two.

josephpalazzo

What you are saying is tantamount to calling all Germans ignorant in Hitler's times. Nonsense. This is not a question of ignorance but one of an ideology that is intolerable, uncompromising that seeks to dominate the world. We bury our heads in the sand at our own peril.