Freethought & Rationalism Archive

zwi · 03-01-2003, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Hmm, nothing before the Big bang? Well since the first law of thermodynamics states matter can't destroy or create - where did the energy and matter come from to set off the big bang?

If you add up all the angular momentum in the Universe, stuff going this way round, minus stuff going the other way round, you find the answer comes out to Zero

If you add up all the mass and energy in the Universe and remember that Gravitational potential energy is negative and other energy, equivalent via Einstein to mass, is positive could you believe that the sum total of energy plus mass taking accout of plus or minus the total will also be zero

Same goes for electric charge. Total is zero

So the total before any BB was zero, and the total today is zero and the total manana is zero, whats this problem with the First Law?

Zwi

Magus55 · 03-01-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zwi
If you add up all the angular momentum in the Universe, stuff going this way round, minus stuff going the other way round, you find the answer comes out to Zero

If you add up all the mass and energy in the Universe and remember that Gravitational potential energy is negative and other energy, equivalent via Einstein to mass, is positive could you believe that the sum total of energy plus mass taking accout of plus or minus the total will also be zero

Same goes for electric charge. Total is zero

So the total before any BB was zero, and the total today is zero and the total manana is zero, whats this problem with the First Law?

Zwi

And what decided to make all that energy equal zero? Itself? nope sorry, atoms don't make decisions.

MyKell · 03-01-2003, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
And what decided to make all that energy equal zero? Itself? nope sorry, atoms don't make decisions.

Who said that atoms made decisions in the first place???:banghead:

zwi · 03-01-2003, 06:56 PM

Quote:

And what decided to make all that energy equal zero? Itself? nope sorry, atoms don't make decisions.

The recent Wilkinson-Williamson Microwave Anisotropy Probe has evidence that all atoms took a vote about 280 million years after the Bang and decided this

Zwi

MartinM · 03-02-2003, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
And what decided to make all that energy equal zero? Itself? nope sorry, atoms don't make decisions.

You're contradicting yourself here - think about it

Cozmodius · 03-02-2003, 04:19 PM

Ok...I've been looking for the perfect place to make my 1st post with a great big splash...think this is it!

You guys are WAY more intellectual than I...maybe even more intelligent...but WAY more intellectual.:notworthy I've only got my GED and knowledge I've acquired on my own...but that's OK...fire away!

I just want to say that I am probably much closer to you guys' positions than Magus', though in my very self-centered and conceited opinion I feel that I passed by where ya'll are at like the age of 16 (that should get it goin'...heheh). Still, I wanna give ya'll somebody else to kick around for a minnit, maybe with a position or 2 that you might not have heard before.

Therefore, let me present Magus' argument from the opposite approach (mind you, I find that the same argument draws me to a totally different conclusion from both his and yours)...

The Big Bang Theory (which I do happen to agree with at the moment)...says that the universe is expanding...EXPANDING INTO WHAT???

You may fire when ready Grissley!

zwi · 03-02-2003, 05:16 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen

A Boeing 747 took off one day from Kennedy airport, filled with devout Christians, Creationists and a few Islamic Fundamentalists

The plane thundered along the runway gathering speed all the time. Suddenly just before they reached the end of the runway the plane rose up into the air and rose higher and higher up towards the stratosphere

The miracle was that no one on Board was in the least surprised

Was that not truly a miracle?

Zwi

Shadowy Man · 03-02-2003, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cozmodius

The Big Bang Theory (which I do happen to agree with at the moment)...says that the universe is expanding...EXPANDING INTO WHAT???

Uh.. yeah. Well, as many here will tell you: you need to educate yourself on what the Big Bang Theory says. Your question shows that you don't really understand the theory.

A typical place to start is Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial.

Cozmodius · 03-02-2003, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadowy Man
Uh.. yeah. Well, as many here will tell you: you need to educate yourself on what the Big Bang Theory says. Your question shows that you don't really understand the theory.

A typical place to start is Ned Wright's Cosmology Tutorial.

No, no, I already stated that you guys know WAY more than me about this...and I, as a self-employed working husband and father of 2, have no time to research huge cosmology essays filled with myriads of $20 words to look up.

So please, please indulge me...or at least humor me...ye bastions of knowledge...

Semantics aside...is, or is not the universe expanding?

And if it is expanding...EXPANDING INTO WHAT???

eh · 03-02-2003, 09:15 PM

Intuition demands that we ask what the universe is expanding into. Literally every object we know of, exists and moves through space. If something like a balloon expands, we know that it expands into empty space outside it. But with the big bang, matter is not expanding into space. As hard as it is for our intuition to grasp, space itself is expanding. That being said, it is not expanding into anything.

03-02-2003, 05:16 PM	#87
zwi Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sarasota FL Posts: 60	A GENUINE MIRACLE Ladies and Gentlemen A Boeing 747 took off one day from Kennedy airport, filled with devout Christians, Creationists and a few Islamic Fundamentalists The plane thundered along the runway gathering speed all the time. Suddenly just before they reached the end of the runway the plane rose up into the air and rose higher and higher up towards the stratosphere The miracle was that no one on Board was in the least surprised Was that not truly a miracle? Zwi

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03-02-2003, 04:19 PM	#86
Cozmodius Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 18	Ok...I've been looking for the perfect place to make my 1st post with a great big splash...think this is it! You guys are WAY more intellectual than I...maybe even more intelligent...but WAY more intellectual.:notworthy I've only got my GED and knowledge I've acquired on my own...but that's OK...fire away! I just want to say that I am probably much closer to you guys' positions than Magus', though in my very self-centered and conceited opinion I feel that I passed by where ya'll are at like the age of 16 (that should get it goin'...heheh). Still, I wanna give ya'll somebody else to kick around for a minnit, maybe with a position or 2 that you might not have heard before. Therefore, let me present Magus' argument from the opposite approach (mind you, I find that the same argument draws me to a totally different conclusion from both his and yours)... The Big Bang Theory (which I do happen to agree with at the moment)...says that the universe is expanding...EXPANDING INTO WHAT??? You may fire when ready Grissley!

03-02-2003, 09:15 PM	#90
eh Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Canada Posts: 624	Intuition demands that we ask what the universe is expanding into. Literally every object we know of, exists and moves through space. If something like a balloon expands, we know that it expands into empty space outside it. But with the big bang, matter is not expanding into space. As hard as it is for our intuition to grasp, space itself is expanding. That being said, it is not expanding into anything.

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