Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Starboy · 05-23-2003, 09:48 PM

Rad, your right of course, but you forgot to mention that slavery was also supported by the bible thumpers as well. The entire episode only goes to show that people can from time to time do the right thing in spite of the bible.

Starboy

Radorth · 05-23-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

I will remain unconvinced that you have any real appreciation for what is going on in this country, since you didn't even know whteher the pledge (Under God) is said in schools every day and children are suffering for not embracing that.

Please supply some verifyable examples from a respected newspaper not published by atheists, of how they are "suffering." The kids here could care less whether anybody says "under God" or not. They don't even care if you throw spitballs through the thing, far as I can tell.

Rad

Rational BAC · 05-23-2003, 10:02 PM

Continuing post to Rhea again about the Pledge---

And even as far as adults saying the Pledge so much today and it being a test of patriotism-----------I think---------

----------That is all a bit of very temporary jingoistic foolishness that will drop by the wayside in a fairly short time.

Give it a few years when our troops are still bogged down in the mid-East and our troops are getting shot at from all sides, and start to retaliate in kind----as could be expected---and we start having Mi Lai type incidents and "patriotism" starts to give a bad taste in peoples mouths-----------

----Then almost nobody beyond grade school will be saying the Pledge of Allegiance at all. Which is the way it should be. And, of course the kids will go back to mumbling it.

I just hope we don't start spitting on our own soldiers again. That was carrying things way too far.

Radorth · 05-23-2003, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Rad, your right of course, but you forgot to mention that slavery was also supported by the bible thumpers as well.

So? Supposedly "progressive" Russian flag wavers helped murder, oppress and enslave millions.

Quote:

The entire episode only goes to show that people can from time to time do the right thing in spite of the bible.

I see. So they just read and memorized the Bible daily and somehow decided to do the opposite of what you think it says, and got their sense of justice from thin air.

I'm afraid the only thing not mentioned around here (except by me) is all that Christians historically did do, and "fundies" at that.

Im sorry, but it just amazes me how someone like BAC can be jumped on by people who are supposedly "free thinkers."

Rad

Starboy · 05-23-2003, 10:08 PM

Rad, someday you will snap out of it and read these posts in amazement at just how out of touch with reality you were.

Starboy

Rational BAC · 05-23-2003, 10:09 PM

We've really got to get off this "Pledge" thing and back on subject.

I know the moderators have a very low tolerance for "sidetracking".

Any other definitions of Christian fundamentalism?

cjack · 05-23-2003, 10:44 PM

I don't think anyone would argue that Biblical literalist/Bible thumping/everyone-but-us-is-going to Hell fundies are a minority in America...with respect to both the general population and the Christian majority.

That said, I'd put forth the notion alluded to on this thread that the fundies are a very vocal and powerful minority.

Folks who watch the 700 Club (and actually buy into Pat's bullshit) are probably more likely to go out and support things like Constitutional amendments to "restore" prayer in schools or "protect" the Pledge.

Organizations like the Christian Coalition and Promise Keepers are filled with activist fundies who are working really hard to "return" this nation to Christianity...like it ever left!

The question isn't really "what is a fundy" or "are fundies a minority" but rather: How politically powerful are the fundies compared to other groups?

Stem-cell research was mentioned earlier, and makes a fine example.

The fundy who currently occupies the White House put the brakes on stem-cell research in large part because it boosted his appeal with other fundies who make up a big part of his voter base. His decision had absolutely nothing to do with the scientific merits of stem-cell research, but everything to do with the fact that he's bucking for the fundy vote.

The vast majority of people probably wouldn't bat an eye if the ban were lifted, but then, the majority of people don't vote. It's a safe bet that the majority of the people who never make it to the polls are liberal Christians.

It only took about 25% of eligible voters to get Bush elected, and I'm guessing that a significant portion of them are happy about the stem-cell decision because Jesus loves fetuses, too!

So are fundies a minority? Yes. But so are registered Republican voters. If you get enough fundies behind an issue, they will have more than enough power to push whatever pro-fundy agenda they want to, and they know that the majority of liberal, apathetic Christians will do nothing to stop them.

lpetrich · 05-24-2003, 12:13 AM

(on who abolished slavery...)
Radorth:
No it was the Quakers, Methodists, Beecher, and Charles Finney, with some belated help from the government. ...

Except that the supporters were also Xtians. And they even had a Biblical argument for whites enslaving blacks:

The curse of Ham.

For being a Peeping Tom, his descendants would be subject to those of his brothers Shem and Japheth.

And there is nothing in the Bible that demands the immediate freeing of all slaves.

I've mentioned this issue before, and Radorth has been silent. Does that mean that he agrees that black people have the curse of Ham on them and that they are therefore to be subject to white people?

No it was Christians. Any atheists known to have joined in King's marches, BTW?

None who bragged about what big fat atheists there were, perhaps, but I would not be surprised if there were at least some agnostics and atheists involved. Certainly any Marxists involved in the movement were likely atheists.

There were also some Jews involved -- and Jews are non-Christians, whether one likes to admit it or not.

I also notice that the civil-rights-movement opponents also considered themselves Xtians -- the KKK doesn't burn question marks.

Yes, segregation was often defended as "Christian principles".

They've elected few "fundy" presidents, and I myself voted for Clinton.

I wonder what Radorth's Religious-Right bosom buddies will think about that.

After all, Jefferson insisted soldiers attend Christian services, and attended them in the Congess.

However that was supposed to have happened. And which sect of Xtianity? Details count.

And the most that proves is that he may have thought of the religion business as useful as the Opium of the People, a convenient Royal Lie.

lpetrich · 05-24-2003, 12:22 AM

Radorth:
So? Supposedly "progressive" Russian flag wavers helped murder, oppress and enslave millions.

However, the anti-slavery and civil-rights movements were left-wing movements, and by Radorth's guilt-by-association arguments, irredeemably tainted by association with Marxism and Communism and Soviet gulags.

Yes, many of the opponents of the civil-rights movement considered it a Communist front that was taking orders from Moscow.

The entire episode only goes to show that people can from time to time do the right thing in spite of the bible.

I see. So they just read and memorized the Bible daily and somehow decided to do the opposite of what you think it says, and got their sense of justice from thin air.

A sence of justice may come from some sort of sociality instinct.

Rational BAC · 05-24-2003, 08:14 AM

Well I tried out Brettc's link to a very detailed survey of Christianity and other belief systems. Very interesting but-----------

Maybe I missed something, but nowhere in it were any questions in this survey devoted to determining functional fundamentalist, literalist Christianity and the proportionate numbers of them. Would think they would have gone into that. I don't see where they did. (But then my eyes get tired after a while)

Any other suggestions for my research on this? There are inummerable polls and surveys done about just about everything under the sun.-----------It would seem to me at least to be some poll done at some time that tried to determine, from a practical standpoint how many Fundies there are in this nation, and worldwide.

Again----------I would go for this simple question in a poll. ------

(forget showing practical application of Genesis in the poll for now---because I think if you actually did that then would find -----------that true Fundies are almost non-existant--that almost everybody is a cherry picker.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------How many believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and is inerrant in all ways?----

--(----could bring up the account in Genesis, but, just for the heck of it, leave any emphasis on any part of the Bible out.-----)

What would you get? I'm guessing close to 30% of Christians. But just a guess.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think somebody somewhere must have done a poll like that of Christians. And I think it would be an excellent, very basic litmus test for Fundies. ----------that we all could probably agree on. --- N'est-ce pas?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any help appreciated.

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05-23-2003, 09:48 PM	#51
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Rad, your right of course, but you forgot to mention that slavery was also supported by the bible thumpers as well. The entire episode only goes to show that people can from time to time do the right thing in spite of the bible. Starboy

05-23-2003, 10:02 PM	#53
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Continuing post to Rhea again about the Pledge--- And even as far as adults saying the Pledge so much today and it being a test of patriotism-----------I think--------- ----------That is all a bit of very temporary jingoistic foolishness that will drop by the wayside in a fairly short time. Give it a few years when our troops are still bogged down in the mid-East and our troops are getting shot at from all sides, and start to retaliate in kind----as could be expected---and we start having Mi Lai type incidents and "patriotism" starts to give a bad taste in peoples mouths----------- ----Then almost nobody beyond grade school will be saying the Pledge of Allegiance at all. Which is the way it should be. And, of course the kids will go back to mumbling it. I just hope we don't start spitting on our own soldiers again. That was carrying things way too far.

05-23-2003, 10:08 PM	#55
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Rad, someday you will snap out of it and read these posts in amazement at just how out of touch with reality you were. Starboy

05-23-2003, 10:09 PM	#56
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	We've really got to get off this "Pledge" thing and back on subject. I know the moderators have a very low tolerance for "sidetracking". Any other definitions of Christian fundamentalism?

05-23-2003, 10:44 PM	#57
cjack Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 4,294	I don't think anyone would argue that Biblical literalist/Bible thumping/everyone-but-us-is-going to Hell fundies are a minority in America...with respect to both the general population and the Christian majority. That said, I'd put forth the notion alluded to on this thread that the fundies are a very vocal and powerful minority. Folks who watch the 700 Club (and actually buy into Pat's bullshit) are probably more likely to go out and support things like Constitutional amendments to "restore" prayer in schools or "protect" the Pledge. Organizations like the Christian Coalition and Promise Keepers are filled with activist fundies who are working really hard to "return" this nation to Christianity...like it ever left! The question isn't really "what is a fundy" or "are fundies a minority" but rather: How politically powerful are the fundies compared to other groups? Stem-cell research was mentioned earlier, and makes a fine example. The fundy who currently occupies the White House put the brakes on stem-cell research in large part because it boosted his appeal with other fundies who make up a big part of his voter base. His decision had absolutely nothing to do with the scientific merits of stem-cell research, but everything to do with the fact that he's bucking for the fundy vote. The vast majority of people probably wouldn't bat an eye if the ban were lifted, but then, the majority of people don't vote. It's a safe bet that the majority of the people who never make it to the polls are liberal Christians. It only took about 25% of eligible voters to get Bush elected, and I'm guessing that a significant portion of them are happy about the stem-cell decision because Jesus loves fetuses, too! So are fundies a minority? Yes. But so are registered Republican voters. If you get enough fundies behind an issue, they will have more than enough power to push whatever pro-fundy agenda they want to, and they know that the majority of liberal, apathetic Christians will do nothing to stop them.

05-24-2003, 12:13 AM	#58
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	(on who abolished slavery...) Radorth: No it was the Quakers, Methodists, Beecher, and Charles Finney, with some belated help from the government. ... Except that the supporters were also Xtians. And they even had a Biblical argument for whites enslaving blacks: The curse of Ham. For being a Peeping Tom, his descendants would be subject to those of his brothers Shem and Japheth. And there is nothing in the Bible that demands the immediate freeing of all slaves. I've mentioned this issue before, and Radorth has been silent. Does that mean that he agrees that black people have the curse of Ham on them and that they are therefore to be subject to white people? No it was Christians. Any atheists known to have joined in King's marches, BTW? None who bragged about what big fat atheists there were, perhaps, but I would not be surprised if there were at least some agnostics and atheists involved. Certainly any Marxists involved in the movement were likely atheists. There were also some Jews involved -- and Jews are non-Christians, whether one likes to admit it or not. I also notice that the civil-rights-movement opponents also considered themselves Xtians -- the KKK doesn't burn question marks. Yes, segregation was often defended as "Christian principles". They've elected few "fundy" presidents, and I myself voted for Clinton. I wonder what Radorth's Religious-Right bosom buddies will think about that. After all, Jefferson insisted soldiers attend Christian services, and attended them in the Congess. However that was supposed to have happened. And which sect of Xtianity? Details count. And the most that proves is that he may have thought of the religion business as useful as the Opium of the People, a convenient Royal Lie.

05-24-2003, 12:22 AM	#59
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Radorth: So? Supposedly "progressive" Russian flag wavers helped murder, oppress and enslave millions. However, the anti-slavery and civil-rights movements were left-wing movements, and by Radorth's guilt-by-association arguments, irredeemably tainted by association with Marxism and Communism and Soviet gulags. Yes, many of the opponents of the civil-rights movement considered it a Communist front that was taking orders from Moscow. The entire episode only goes to show that people can from time to time do the right thing in spite of the bible. I see. So they just read and memorized the Bible daily and somehow decided to do the opposite of what you think it says, and got their sense of justice from thin air. A sence of justice may come from some sort of sociality instinct.

05-24-2003, 08:14 AM	#60
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Well I tried out Brettc's link to a very detailed survey of Christianity and other belief systems. Very interesting but----------- Maybe I missed something, but nowhere in it were any questions in this survey devoted to determining functional fundamentalist, literalist Christianity and the proportionate numbers of them. Would think they would have gone into that. I don't see where they did. (But then my eyes get tired after a while) Any other suggestions for my research on this? There are inummerable polls and surveys done about just about everything under the sun.-----------It would seem to me at least to be some poll done at some time that tried to determine, from a practical standpoint how many Fundies there are in this nation, and worldwide. Again----------I would go for this simple question in a poll. ------ (forget showing practical application of Genesis in the poll for now---because I think if you actually did that then would find -----------that true Fundies are almost non-existant--that almost everybody is a cherry picker.) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------How many believe that the Bible is the literal word of God and is inerrant in all ways?---- --(----could bring up the account in Genesis, but, just for the heck of it, leave any emphasis on any part of the Bible out.-----) What would you get? I'm guessing close to 30% of Christians. But just a guess. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think somebody somewhere must have done a poll like that of Christians. And I think it would be an excellent, very basic litmus test for Fundies. ----------that we all could probably agree on. --- N'est-ce pas? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any help appreciated.

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