viscousmemories

Old Man, all kidding aside, the question you are asking will almost certainly be better answered if you ask it in the Evolution/Creation forum. To ask a serious question about the origin of the universe in a thread called "Religious Morons", in the "General Religious Discussions" forum, does not suggest much forethought on your part. Au contraire, it suggests that you are begging to be maligned by atheists so that your low opinion of our reasoning ability might be reinforced.

Old Man

I am not looking for an in depth answer, but rather comments in the context of the topic of this thread. It's interesting to note how you guys have started trying to malign me personally, and not rationaly, which is off-topic.

I am looking for a bare acknowledgement that there is nothing irrational or moronic in positing that the universe may have had an origin in something outside of itself. That is very "on topic".

If I can't even achieve that acknowledgement, and it seems that I can't, then it seems to me that the reputation for "logical argument" that you infidels are so proud of, is in severe danger of biting the dust.

viscousmemories

Okay, since you have a valid point about your effort to contribute to a rational discussion of the OP of this thread, I'll try to respond in kind. I should like to point out, however, that it is irrational for you to suggest that all of the infidels here are incapable of logical argumentation if nobody adequately responds to a single question of yours in a fairly obscure, and relatively old, thread.

Imagine if I went into the foyer of a church where a couple of women were milling around, nursing their babies, and said, "Prove to me that god exists in 10 words or less or I shall be forced to conclude that no christian is capable of intelligent thought!" Not very fair, is it?

Okay. Now in answer to your question:

No. I don't think there is anything inherently moronic in positing an alternative view about the origin of the universe. However, that was not what Paddy said in his OP. What he said was this:
And, if I may speak on his behalf, what he is saying is not, "positing that the universe may have had an origin in something outside of itself is irrational and moronic", but rather, "why do some religious people, when confronted with nearly irrefutable evidence in favor of a particular scientific opinion, still cling to thier irrational beliefs?"

Asha'man

Don’t be so quick to generalize about us infidels. The one thing that unifies us is a lack of belief in a specific concept, nothing else.

I also have studied some astronomy, and the big bang theory is an interesting one. Back when I was more agnostic, I was willing to concede a clear lack of knowledge about the origin of the universe and a possible external cause. However, I was also unwilling to jump to unfounded conclusions. We have absolutely no evidence about what happened in the first few seconds of the universe, and very complex indirect evidence about everything after that. In fact, our current understanding of physics says that we cannot ever achieve certain types of scientific knowledge about the instant of the big bang. Clearly, an “I just don’t know” answer is more than appropriate at this time.

However, I have also looked at quantum physics, and that branch of science clearly demonstrates that not every event is caused. Given this fact, plus an absolute lack of evidence for anything supernatural in this world, it is irrational to assume that supernatural forces must be involved. It is even more irrational to jump to the conclusion that the responsible party is perfectly documented in the ancient myths of a primitive culture.

Radorth

From a site posted on page 1:

Criminy. If this isn't a description of Jesus mythers, there isn't one. Their arrogant assertions of what is evidence and what isn't lead them into all kinds of conundrums even the lowly Rad can see. Their stubborn belief in their own cognitive "skills" and their insatiable desire to come up with a new theory a week are the only reason I can see for it. Few if any of their theories will ever leave these walls. Meanwhile "morons" like Durant or M. Scott Peck have or will sell 50,000,000 books.

Ironically, the "swoon" theory is a rational argument, very difficult to defend against, and does far more damage to the cause. But it isn't "in" right now. IMO, JM'ers are defeated in their goals by their own self absorption and stubborn efforts to save the world from Jesus at any intellectual cost. They make the Gospels look like hard evidence.

As long as I live I will never forget Hudson taking Kirby to task for being skeptical of JM'er assertions. I grin every time I think of it.

Rad

Ronin

Didn't even make a dent, did I Rad, seebs, Amie...Old Man?



PS ~ there is a difference between exploring new theories and desperately maintaining the nonsensical...and that makes all the difference in the world between us.

Radorth

I'm talking about JM er's here. I dunno, they get pretty hot when confronted with their intellectual hypocrisy. You can call putting Kirby on the defensive "exploring new theories." I call it what it what I just called it, and what it deserves.

I told you how to make a big dent, if you want to. But skeptics here are surprisingly sensitive to what's "in" at the moment, so I won't worry about you making a dent. Sneddin, on the other hand... well I hope he buys a fixer house with lots of termite damage.

Rad

Ronin

I see now.

Well, I admit, the avoidance technique works so well for you, Rad...especially when you are put on the defensive.

ROFL!!

JEST2ASK

Thanks I consider myself agnostic .... yet I find certain claims irrational / improbable .... Howevr I can not be a true (strong - whatever) atheist. and as the orginal post (you guys do remember that ) seems to be saying the seemingly unflinching belief in that which if credited to someone of a different religion one would find "moronic" is what is so frustrating:banghead:


I also think that Old Man has some valid points but I wonder (nothing personal) how sincere he is in refering to the possibliblity of a force outside of the universe as a first cause.


Only adding my $0.02 (before adjusting for inflation)


Oh I am also too far out of "IT" to worry about the what's "in" at the moment,

Yellum Notnef

I don`t know what you have to be grinning about,bible boy when you can`t even tell me where the sin came from that Jesus allegedly died to pay for.

It`s the cornerstone of your religion and the whole mission of your saviour is moot without it,but you can`t even tell me where it came from without having to fall back on the Genesis myths (which you claim to not believe but still use when your chips are down).

There has to be SOMETHING that keeps you blindly trudging along and I`m seriously starting to wonder if it`s YOU who might have the learning disability.