Gurdur

Nope, as soon as you get down to hard practicalities, they start disagreeing very sharply indeed.
Soteriorology from a hard 5-pointer Calvinist viewpoint is incredibly different from a Quaker viewpoint, again from a Greek Orthodox, etc. etc. etc.

lol, you're the second person to flatter me tonight.
Am I losing my sharp edge or something ?

On a more serious note, you haven't answered QoS' serious points either; no way were they just a joke.

Were this at all true in any meaningful way, human society would be impossible.
You can only get away with this statement if you banalize the term "evil" to nothingness, or if you use a circular argument for the definition of evil.

Once they get down to tacheles, bang goes all putative agreement.

Ah, a soft answer turneth away wrath.
Not necessarily so; you're not yet cogniscent of my rules of fire.

Well now, you need a valid definition of being "lost" and "Hell", which you haven't provided.

Why the double hockey sticks ? Took me at least 2 minutes to work that one out, probably since I've never played hockey.

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: Gurdur ]</p>

ex-preacher

here's the rest of that verse that luvluv conveniently chose not to quote:

. . . In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."

Paul was quoting a verse from Proverbs and also perhaps alluding to the beautiful Psalm 140 which reads (in verse 10):

"Let burning coals fall upon them; may they be thrown into the fire, into miry pits, never to rise."

Now isn't that a lovely thought!

sandlewood

You seem to have ignored the tough parts, Luvluv. Anyway…
Why? In order to understand what you are talking about. I am not belaboring it, I’m discussing it. And discussion is necessary, apparently, to understand what you mean by “consequences”. Now you seem to mean that a consequence refers not only to the person doing the action, but to anyone affected by that action. Now does “consequence” mean negative consequence? If not, then all you’re saying is that every action has a result, which doesn’t prove anything. If so, then you’re saying that every action taken by anyone has a negative consequence for someone. So who decides what a negative consequence is? If a parent disciplines a child, the child would see that as a negative consequence. But most of us would not see it as negative because it teaches the child something, and the child could be better in the long run for it. In this situation, someone has to decide whether there was a negative consequence, and if there was, then the person performing the action that caused the negative result is off to Hell to be tormented forever.
You’re saying that because a person has an eating disorder—something they have no control over—they are going to Hell?

What if there is one person who drinks a fifth of whisky a day and cannot stop because he is an alcoholic, but there is also a second person who drinks a fifth of whisky a day and can stop any time he wants? Does the alcoholic go to Hell while the non-alcoholic go to Heaven?

Also, how is lust a sin worthy of eternal torment if it doesn’t hurt anyone?

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by sandlewood:
<strong>

Also, how is lust a sin worthy of eternal torment if it doesn’t hurt anyone?</strong>

It hurts the people who aren't getting any.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by luvluv:
<strong>
QoS often refers to things like tea drinking and writing atheists books </strong>

"Often"? I referred to them once.

Stranger and stranger, luvluv.

<strong>as if these were the worst parts of her personality. My argument is that everyone has some pretty heinous evil in them.</strong>

So, what's the "pretty heinous evil" that I have in me right now?

<strong>I don't think it takes being evil, so to speak, to be lost or even, unfortunately, to go to H-E double hockey sticks.</strong>

All the more evidence for the lack of justice and logic in your particular theology.

luvluv

"Nope, as soon as you get down to hard practicalities, they start disagreeing very sharply indeed."

Which is why I said on 'this particular point'. They don't disagree that God is the only way to overcome our sinfullness.

"lol, you're the second person to flatter me tonight.
Am I losing my sharp edge or something ? "

It's hard not to compliment someone with such a keen ability to detect sarcasm.

ex-preacher: I somehow doubt that passage is what the author was referring to. I think he said it because it makes the other person feel guilty and desire to make restitution. It's worked for me before. People insult me or gossip about me, and in response I am really nice to them, not obseqious, I just do not retaliate in anyway and if they are in need of anything I have I share it with them. Generally speaking, this results in them feeling guilty about what they have done and making up with me. It's almost never failed. This is what is meant by overcoming evil with good. No matter what anyone does to you, do good to them. Almost no one can be consistently mean to someone who is consistently nice to them.

sandlewood:

I am saying that some actions, what we would classically call acts of sin, generally have their own negative consequences independant of any negative consequence God imposes on them. Lying has it's own natural consequence of people believing you to be untrustworthy. Cruelty has it's own natural consequence of diminishing a persons capacity for empathy and simple human kindness. Lust can lead persons to consider human beings as objects of pleasure rather than subjects whose real purpose is to give and receive love.

And there is a difference between good argument (which I fully admit bg is very good at) and simply throwing out irrelavent objections. Obviosuly some people can eat and not get fact. Does this in anyway affect my argument that morally bad actions have bad consequences for the actor?

"You’re saying that because a person has an eating disorder—something they have no control over—they are going to Hell?"

What I am saying is not that they go to Hell, it's that the inability to control oneself is WHAT HELL IS. You may have missed big portions of this discussion. My argument is that Hell is simply a place where people who want to be seperate from God go. Because of that seperation from God, they lose access to all their good attributes (which all flow from God, according to Christendom). All that is left to them is their will, what they want. This, apart from the beneficient influence of God, without things like children and finite resources that evoke sharing and co-operation on the earth (presumably, spirits in Hell won't need to eat) they will become more and more selfish, and more and more sadistic, until in a few thousand years (roughly) they will become so evil as to cease to be human. I have argued that if you ever meet on this earth a really really bitter person, you can see the process already underway. Their bitterness is eating away their CAPACITY for love, so that 10 years from now, if nothing changes, they will be much less open to the possibility of love than they are now.

I am not arguing that the inability to control oneself merits the PUNISHMENT of evil. I am saying that once you have given up all the goodness that comes from God, and have nothing but your own selfish will to fall back on, you will become totally depraved, and that depravation IS HELL:

'Hell is where one must do what one wants to do'

- Shaw

QoS:

"So a normal need for food, which people generally have little to no control over, is not sinful?"

Nope.

"Could you show how these all stem from atheism? Also, you did not say how these were supposed to "overwhelm" me. Please go into extra-specific details for the "lust" part, would you?"

They don't stem from atheism, they stem from human nature. I have them, but I try to submit myself to God to help me to get rid of them. I do not mean that they overwhelm you to the point that you lose your humanity on earth. But if you were seperated from God and from anything that might "civilize" you, so to speak, in a few thousand years it would overwhelm you. If you nurture bitterness towards someone who has hurt you on earth even for 10 years, you can really harden yourself to the point where you cut yourself from all possibility of love. And this is on earth where people will try to bring you out of your funk, where things like sunsets and children and rainbows (awww, I sound like a Care Bear) will try to bring that love that you are suppressing out of you. But if you were locked somewhere away from God, away from the things that could bring you out of your funk, and if you were to remain there alone or with people even more angry and bitter than you, and that for thousands and thousands of years unbroken, you would eventually become something less than human.

"In other words, you don't have a written source?"

I could probably find a couple of dozen on the specific questions of God being the source of all goodness and God being the only way to overcome sin. They wouldn't be the Bible but they would be some pretty big names in Christendom. But do you really doubt that those two theories are part of Christian thought and opinion, or are you just trying to make my life difficult for the sheer pleasure of it?

"Damn, you mean to say that after all this time, you didn't realize that there was no "atheist bible"?"

Why doesn't somebody get off their duff and write one. How hard is it to write the articles of faith for a belief system with no beliefs? Get on the ball, people!

As to your question, yes, I think your sense of humor does come from God but I try not to hold that against Him.

"Off the top of my head. But it was also the opinion of guys like Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and a few others.

Evidence, such as quotes actually made by them?"

Are you seriously unaware of the opinion of these gentleman on that point? I thought that was common knowledge. I could get some quotes, but as folks on this board often tell me, it is not incumbent on me to do your homework for you. Again, I suspect you derive a grim pleasure from sending me searching for quotes.

"So, what's the "pretty heinous evil" that I have in me right now?"

As I said: Lying, jealousy, anger, lust, a desire to control others, a desire for vengeance, unforgiveness, etc.

Unless you are somehow immune to all of these things.

"And perhaps you're not so evil.

And perhaps you're simply wrong."

So much for catching flies with honey...

hal9000

Interesting that luvluv and Atticus avoid <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000122" target="_blank">This thread.</a> This is a line of thought they have no answer for. But you wouldn’t be the first theist to fail to find an answer to this thread, and you won’t be the last. Now luvluv can get on the ball!

Gurdur

Oh no, they don't disagree on that; they just happen to disagree on the nature of God, sinfulness (note spelling) and just how God is supposed to overcome it.

Gosh, you're dense, luvluv; don't you think you should have a far better grasp of theology before deigning to preach to us infidels ?

Ah, I see you're here to compliment yourself on your outstanding intellectual abilities as opposed to us heathens, thus shoring up your ego with its little problems of inadequacy.

Ah, that explains your scintillating sarcasm.

What theological twaddle and garbage. If all good comes from God, then all consequences of evil are consequences from God, since He is the Creator.
Or am I being too deep for you ?

More incoherent theological twaddle.
You're making this up as you go along, yes ?
You really need far more forethought.

Pot, kettle, black; luvluv simply doesn't answer questions that luvluv doesn't like.

You mean your conception of God, which is simply a projection of your ego. Sad.

Bah, you really don't know QoS well, do you ?
Yet you arrogantly take to yourself the power of judgment on someone else you know very damned little about.

You amaze me with your hubris, luvluv.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by luvluv:
<strong>
"You’re saying that because a person has an eating disorder—something they have no control over—they are going to Hell?"

What I am saying is not that they go to Hell, it's that the inability to control oneself is WHAT HELL IS.</strong>

Large portions of Earth are turning to Hell as we speak.

<strong>Because of that seperation from God, they lose access to all their good attributes (which all flow from God, according to Christendom).</strong>

Where do their bad attributes flow from? The devil? If so, people are just empty vessels - they have no personalities save what the gods pump into them.

<strong>presumably, spirits in Hell won't need to eat</strong>

What are spirits in Hell like? Do they have nerve endings? If not, how do they feel pain?

<strong>they will become so evil as to cease to be human.</strong>

If you become extremely good, do you also cease to be human? What do you become instead?

<strong>Their bitterness is eating away their CAPACITY for love</strong>

Does it also work the other way around? Does love eat away the CAPACITY for bitterness?

<strong>I am not arguing that the inability to control oneself merits the PUNISHMENT of evil.</strong>

So a person with a mental disorder, who thereby cannot control himself or herself, won't actually deserve to be PUNISHED with evil?

<strong>"So a normal need for food, which people generally have little to no control over, is not sinful?"

Nope.</strong>

But people have no control over their desires for food. And the inablity to control oneself is WHAT HELL IS, according to you.

<strong>"Could you show how these all stem from atheism? Also, you did not say how these were supposed to "overwhelm" me. Please go into extra-specific details for the "lust" part, would you?"

They don't stem from atheism, they stem from human nature.</strong>

Serious design flaw in human nature.

<strong>I have them, but I try to submit myself to God to help me to get rid of them. I do not mean that they overwhelm you to the point that you lose your humanity on earth.</strong>

Since my "humanity on earth" is the only thing for which I have evidence (and it hasn't shown any signs of changing), why should I worry about my humanity any place else?

<strong>But if you were seperated from God and from anything that might "civilize" you</strong>

This would be the same god who ordered genocide and the murder of children? Very civilizing, the killing of babies.

<strong>so to speak, in a few thousand years it would overwhelm you. If you nurture bitterness towards someone who has hurt you on earth even for 10 years, you can really harden yourself to the point where you cut yourself from all possibility of love.</strong>

Why? It doesn't follow that bitterness always leads to a lack of "all possiblity of love". Show me some evidence that it does.

<strong>And this is on earth where people will try to bring you out of your funk, where things like sunsets and children and rainbows (awww, I sound like a Care Bear) will try to bring that love that you are suppressing out of you.</strong>

What "love that I am suppressing"? You make less and less sense...

<strong>But if you were locked somewhere away from God</strong>

The same god who ordered non-bleeding virgins to be stoned to death?

<strong>away from the things that could bring you out of your funk, and if you were to remain there alone or with people even more angry and bitter than you,</strong>

What if I was there with people less angry and bitter than me?

<strong>and that for thousands and thousands of years unbroken, you would eventually become something less than human.</strong>

What does this "something less than human" look and act like?

<strong>"In other words, you don't have a written source?"

I could probably find a couple of dozen on the specific questions of God being the source of all goodness and God being the only way to overcome sin. They wouldn't be the Bible but they would be some pretty big names in Christendom.</strong>

Sorry. If it wasn't important enough to the fate of my eternal soul to be included in the inspired words of the bible, how important could your god possibly think it was?

<strong>But do you really doubt that those two theories are part of Christian thought and opinion, or are you just trying to make my life difficult for the sheer pleasure of it?</strong>

I doubt that you have a coherent or logical theory, also I think you're just making it up as you go along.

<strong>"Damn, you mean to say that after all this time, you didn't realize that there was no "atheist bible"?"

Why doesn't somebody get off their duff and write one. How hard is it to write the articles of faith for a belief system with no beliefs? Get on the ball, people!</strong>

Well, you just said it yourself. How could there be faith for a system with no beliefs? Boy, you really are stretching!

<strong>As to your question, yes, I think your sense of humor does come from God but I try not to hold that against Him.</strong>

As I've been pointing out, your god is a sadist at heart, and you keep coming up with new ways to prove me right.

<strong>"Off the top of my head. But it was also the opinion of guys like Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and a few others.

Evidence, such as quotes actually made by them?"

Are you seriously unaware of the opinion of these gentleman on that point?</strong>

I want specific quotes to back up the exact point you were attempting to make, which is that less-evil people can never convert more-evil people.

<strong>I thought that was common knowledge.</strong>

You learn something new every day.

<strong>I could get some quotes, but as folks on this board often tell me, it is not incumbent on me to do your homework for you.</strong>

In other words, you don't really have any evidence? That's quite all right, I knew you were just making it up as you went along.

<strong>Again, I suspect you derive a grim pleasure from sending me searching for quotes.</strong>

<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> for luvluv.

<strong>"And perhaps you're not so evil.

And perhaps you're simply wrong."

So much for catching flies with honey...</strong>

So much for knowing the difference between flies and people, I guess.

Queen of Swords

Would you believe that I didn't even read your post before I replied to luvluv's... and I came up with the same conclusion?

Great minds, etc.

Edited to add : Check your private messages, 'kay?

[ April 20, 2002: Message edited by: QueenofSwords ]</p>