Mageth

Not if used qualitatively as an anthropomorphic desription of God.

"Great" may be used qualitatively, I suppose. "Greater" is quantitative, is it not? Does it not assume the possibility of "lesser" beings that can be conceived? What makes them lesser than God?

So, is God capable of conceiving a greater being or not?

Sabine Grant

I agree Mageth...it has been shown that a spiritual belief can improve the level of resistance of the immune system ( sort of like mind over matter). However that does not constitute proof that there is supernatural intervention.
Auto suggestion can modify the response an individual may have to illness. Negative emotions such as fear, anxiety, anger can increase the stress level on the immune system.
Can we say that the power of prayer may reside in how it affects the psyche of an individual. But I will also add that meditation , yoga etc have the same power.

Sabine Grant

No.. you are changing the meaning of what I stated. As a believer, I do not expect limbs to grow. It is not what constitutes the proof of the power of prayer to me. Are you interested in the point of view of a christian who does not necessarly believes that God has to grow limbs to respond to a prayer?
Your assertion that " so many christians" " balk" as soon as the affliction is something with no ambiguity whatsover is extreme. My experience is that most christians do not pray to God to cure a cold.... rather they pray for serious illnesses which seem to necessitate the impossible to be cured.

Mageth

Can we say that the power of prayer may reside in how it affects the psyche of an individual. But I will also add that meditation , yoga etc have the same power.

I agree.

Sci_Fidelity

Again, you are way off the mark. The point is, there has NEVER been a documented case of prayer healing a serious illness/ problem/ injury where the condition itsef rules out ambiguity or interpretation, where spontaneous remission can be ruled out. (I challenge you to show me one.) Therefore, miraculous healings do not occur.

Why is it that a study involving cancer, etc., would be valid but one involving missing limbs is not. I have yet to be given a plausible reason why such a study would not be valid. Is this god of yours capable of healing such patients or not? Is he/ she/ it unwilling ? Why?

Mageth

Again, you are way off the mark. The point is, there has NEVER been a documented case of prayer healing a serious illness/ problem/ injury where the condition itsef rules out ambiguity or interpretation, where spontaneous remission can be ruled out. (I challenge you to show me one.) Therefore, miraculous healings do not occur.

I don't think your conclusion is justified. Yes, there's no documented evidence (at least that I've seen) that such a healing has occurred, but that in itself does not lead one to the positive conclusion that they do not or cannot occur.

Note that I don't think they do or have occurred, but I would not say absolutely that they do not or cannot occur.

Mageth

Why is it that a study involving cancer, etc., would be valid but one involving missing limbs is not. I have yet to be given a plausible reason why such a study would not be valid.

Once again, if the study is geared towards determining prayer's efficacy in healing, it may be that studies where the potential positive effects on the psyche's ability to "assist" the body in the healing process may only be valid for subjects that have illnesses that the body is capable of overcoming.

In other words, there may be two potential effects of prayer being considered here - one, prayer's potential beneficial psychological effects, which may lead to faster healing or even "miraculous" recovery from some sorts of ailments; and two, "magic" effects where prayer invokes some power to do the "impossible", e.g. growing new limbs. IMO, they're two different effects to be tested separately. If studying the first effect, amputees would be a poor choice for the study. And, indeed, I think the first is what most of these tests intend to study.

Sci_Fidelity

Posted by Mageth:



OK so with all due respect, everyone seems to be missing the point of the thread, so I'm going to try once more and then give up.

1) Prayer is said to be helpful to people who are ill.

2) Prayer is even said to cure said illnesses.

3) The deity being prayed to is believed to have healing powers.

4) Said deity should be able to provide healing power to those prayed for regardless of the condition.

5) (4) does not obtain (at least it has not been shown to.)

Therefore, it would be valid to study the effects of prayer on conditions for which there could be no mistaking the outcome.

Philosoft

I disagree. Unless you can ensure that your control group is receiving a zero quantity of the independent variable, there will always be a problem. How can you design a study that purports to contrast prayer and non-prayer if you can't provide a true non-prayer group?

Mageth

OK so with all due respect, everyone seems to be missing the point of the thread, so I'm going to try once more and then give up.

1) Prayer is said to be helpful to people who are ill.

2) Prayer is even said to cure said illnesses.

3) The deity being prayed to is believed to have healing powers.

4) Said deity should be able to provide healing power to those prayed for regardless of the condition.

5) (4) does not obtain (at least it has not been shown to.)

Therefore, it would be valid to study the effects of prayer on conditions for which there could be no mistaking the outcome.

Well, perhaps there's a bit of misunderstanding is on your part or on your friend's part as well, in misunderstanding the studies that have been done on prayer, which I believe have mostly been directed not at the magical power of prayer to heal but at the psychological power of prayer to assist in healing. For such a study, subjects with severed limbs would be poor choices.

Nevertheless, I do understand what you're getting at.

I'd mention that 4) is claimed to have been obtained, for example in the bible in regards to profound lameness, blindness, deafness, and even death! Well, no one I know expects the dead to be raised by prayer except perhaps in extraordinary circumstances (and I have heard such claims), but I do know some who think such things as lameness, blindness and deafness can be healed by prayer. I don't know anyone who claims that limbs have been regrown, but a year or so ago I had an account of several feet of the small intestines magically being regrown relayed to me! (Trust me, I don't believe this stuff for a second. I asked the person who relayed the account for evidence (dr's reports, x-rays, etc) and am still waiting...in vain, I reckon).

So I agree that a controlled test, if possible, to test the efficacy of prayer to "magically" heal, for example, the blind, is an interesting concept. But of course, one could never get funding for such a project. The 'disbelieveing' side would never throw their money away on such a project, and the 'believing' side wouldn't back it because they know that the results would not be beneficial to their claims. For "major" healings, they know they're far better off with their unverifiable, anecdotal "evidence" than any real science. So for "minor" healings they can point at the studies and for "major" healings they can point at their anecdotal evidence. How conveeenient.